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Post by Claire on Apr 23, 2013 20:09:14 GMT 1
Was talking about this to a bookish friend the other day and my post on the American thread brought it back to mind. I know that there has always been a tendency for a lot of children's books (much more so than adult ones) to be aimed at a particular sex. With British pony books it's girls, then you have girl's and boy's school stories which are 2 separate genres and they all seem to be populated with heroes/heroines who are of the same sex as the target market. Books which are aimed at both sexes, like general holiday adventures, have main characters of both sexes no doubt in order to appeal to both boy and girl readers.
The big question is - as a child do you really need to have the hero/heroine of a book the same sex as yourself in order to identify with them? (Which is obviously what editors/publishers always thought). Or do you identify just as easily with main characters of the opposite sex? For me, I don't think there is much difference if you are interested in the subject matter. I was just as interested in the adventures of Alec in the Black Stallion series as all the female characters in my other pony books. But I wouldn't have picked up a book with a male lead character if it had been about cricket for example. In fact I would go further as to say I probably identified MORE with the boys in a lot of the stories which had both sexes in them, like Enid Blyton adventures. This could be cos I was a tomboy of course! (And cos a lot of the girls in EB books were wet)
Also do people think this changes with age, are you more or less likely to be drawn to same sex characters as an adult than as a child?
I'm also interested in this from a psychological view point, as the consensus of opinion is that in our society it is not so bad for women to identify with men as for men to identify with women. Therefore it would seem worse for a man to be reading a Mills n Boon than for a woman to be seen reading a Western. (probably the 2 most gender specific genres out!)
Anyway would be interested to hear other people's opinions about gender-specific books/characters etc.
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Post by susanb on Apr 23, 2013 21:01:20 GMT 1
Great idea for a thread, Claire! The thing is, for me, I never needed to IDENTIFY with the protagonist, I just had to want to KNOW them. I certainly did identify with many girls in books, and boys as well, depending on their characters, but it wasn't necessary for me to like or want to read the book. I think an awful lot of the "gender specific" reading issues are foisted onto kids by their parents....I have a friend whose brother read all of her Nancy Drew books...he didn't want to BE her, he wanted to DATE her!  (and, err...., confession, I certainly had crushes on both David Balfour (Kidnapped by Rudyard Stevenson) and Kim, aka Kimball O'Hara (Kim by Rudyard Kipling). |
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Post by Claire on Apr 23, 2013 21:16:28 GMT 1
I think a huge amount of what appears in children's books (and the general character of children's books) is shaped by what the publishing world THINKS children want (or perhaps need) rather than what the children themselves want. Not only the gender thing, but the Americanisation issue we have discussed before, updating stories unnecessarily and even getting rid of loved characters and replacing em with new ones (The JPT Moors series springs to mind) Lol good point, that you may not really need to 'identify' with the characters as such, just like them (or indeed fancy them!!!) |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 6:37:01 GMT 1
Nope! As long as there was a horse in it somewhere it didn't matter to me who the hero/heroine was ;D
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Post by Claire on Apr 24, 2013 17:22:36 GMT 1
My favourite stories were actually probably the ones with both girls and boys, especially brothers and sisters, as I could relate to that, having a younger brother with whom I did a lot of things with, like the kids in the books (building dens, going off on bike rides, etc). I suppose people who came from big families would enjoy reading about them cos they identified with the situation and also only children would like reading about big families cos it was all new to them. Children as readers are a lot more complex than editors seem to think!
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Post by kunuma on Apr 24, 2013 18:16:33 GMT 1
Hmmmm interesting - I will no doubt be in big trouble with Darren and tintin when I admit I prefer female characters in all my books! But in animal books especially I tend to find it hard to believe that a 'mere male' could care about an animal to the same degree - prob because I have yet to meet one who does in RL!
Some of this might be because I don't have a brother, and went to an all girls school, so pretty much grew up thinking males were all from Mars. Of course, once I grew up, I didn't just think they were, I was damn sure they were!! ;D
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Post by susanb on Apr 24, 2013 19:16:52 GMT 1
Claire, I like stories that have male/female siblings/friends too.....as long as they aren't a squabbly bunch. Or include a whiney younger sibling that has to be included in everything who generally is just annoying. So....further to your point, being an only child, I guess I liked stories that featured an IDEAL big family, rather than one that depicted big families as they actually are |
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Post by Claire on Apr 24, 2013 19:22:27 GMT 1
Lol kunuma ;D Interesting point about the all girls school/no brothers. I wonder if you need to have children of the other sex around to identify with them somewhat in books...? Do the rest of you have brothers/sisters or went to a mixed school? EDIT - just read your post susan so see you didnt have a brother!
I can defo say that there are men who are bonkers about animals tho. My dad is one for starters, he has been keeping colonies of feral cats alive for years. And he is responsible for acquiring most of my moggies over the years! He forked out a few hundred quid for a garden shed and has ended up converting it as a des res for a stray moggie - complete with central heating!!! Plus he has practically got a bird sanctuary in his garden now he puts so much food out for them.
But you know it could be a product of gender conditioning that not so many men go in for animals in such a big way as girls, as once again a lot of the children's animal stories seem aimed at girls. Its a chicken and egg thing.
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Post by susanb on Apr 24, 2013 19:38:47 GMT 1
LOL....my Dad and his Dad before him were stray dog people!! And yes, my school was mixed.
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Post by Claire on Apr 24, 2013 20:04:48 GMT 1
When I think back to my childhood, there was very little gender segregation in what me and my brother did/played with/read. I used to play with his action men and cowboys and indians, but our favourite games which we played together were about animals. Mind you he wouldn't have been seen dead playing with my dolls which goes back to what I was saying earlier. Tomboys are somewhat accepted, boys interested in 'girlish' things are labelled cissies. Its a shame.
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Post by susanb on Apr 24, 2013 20:37:38 GMT 1
All too true, and yes, definitely sad! And things seem to be changing of late, but not for the better....I'm sure we've all noticed the nasty pinkification of girls books. The sea of revolting pink plus glittery junk absolutely screams "keep away boys!". It also has the effect of color-coding what is "for" girls...i.e. this is your aisle, Sallie, the other stuff is for boys. Sigh.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 6:37:39 GMT 1
That is a real cliché in pony books! I find them a bit irritating at times.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 6:38:58 GMT 1
Yuk yuk yuk! I never wore pink as a girl  |
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Post by Claire on Apr 25, 2013 10:00:41 GMT 1
Confession time! I quite like the colour pink  and I am not a girly girl by any means! ;D But pink fluffy pony books ewwww! I'm glad some of the new pony books seem to be moving away from this. In fact a couple I've read lately have been gently poking fun at them. I recall a few months ago a post when a mum of a quite young pony mad boy came on here asking for help finding something for her young son to read as most of the pony books for the younger age were of the glittery pink variety. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 12:48:14 GMT 1
I can't imagine you as a girly girl somehow! ;D But wearing pink...nooooooooo!  |
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Post by susanb on Apr 25, 2013 14:20:57 GMT 1
LOL....I like pink too, Claire. I didn't really wear any particular color as a child, and I wasn't hit about the head with Pinkness then, so I think that's why I'm ABLE to like it now. I don't think anyone really enjoys anything they've been force fed!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 17:55:43 GMT 1
Eeek, I'm surrounded by pink people lol ;D ;D
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Post by susanb on Apr 25, 2013 18:48:56 GMT 1
Poor Rosie...don't worry, I don't think it's catching!
Still, while I like and wear pink, I object most strenuously to the tidal wave of pink books and toys.....what happened to "variety is the spice of life"?
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Post by Claire on Apr 25, 2013 20:43:31 GMT 1
Haha I'll have to find a picture of me all decked out in pink now ;D
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Post by trixiepony on Apr 26, 2013 0:55:37 GMT 1
I was a little Girly girl I liked pretty things, I didn't mind getting muddy or dusty and I preferred to play ponies more than houses, I think I had my moments off tomboyness climbing trees yes I put jeans on for that. But all that pretty pink books and not real my little pony books are too much I liked real story's with real sounding kids I had a brother and went to a mixed school. Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2013 7:11:31 GMT 1
You do look cute trixiepony  Come on then Claire, your turn, get that photo out! ;D ;D |
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Post by Claire on Apr 28, 2013 17:04:39 GMT 1
Cute pic trixiepony! Funnily enough can't find many pics of me in pink actually. But here's one taken a couple of weeks ago of me in a pink fleece and baseball cap.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2013 18:20:44 GMT 1
Very...er... pink ;D Where was that then Claire, it looks like an Historic house of some sort? |
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Post by darkhorse on Apr 28, 2013 21:18:59 GMT 1
Lol at all the pink!
I'm a bit like Kunuma. I can identify with both, but more with female characters. I had no brothers, although I did go to a mixed school. But you don't really like the boys at school until you are old enough to start dating them! As an adult I can identify more with adult male characters in books, but I still identify more with girls when I read the pony books (I have got 2 girls of my own also so males don't get much of a look in in my family!)
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Post by Claire on Apr 28, 2013 22:48:30 GMT 1
Very...er... pink ;D Where was that then Claire, it looks like an Historic house of some sort? It's Mount Grace Priory. Visited it a couple of weeks ago with my mum (in pic), dad and friend. I have some other photos of the place. I may post them on the historic buildings thread if anyone is interested. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2013 6:09:12 GMT 1
Yes please Claire when you have the time  |
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Post by Claire on Apr 29, 2013 12:00:46 GMT 1
OK rosie will post some this evening, it was a really interesting place.
Back to the main topic, I do rate modern pony books that feature boys and accept that boys may be interested in ponies too. Actually the theme of boys who like ponies being labelled cissies is explored in Sheena Wilkinson's new book which is coming out soon. (There may be a freebie of this up for grabs so watch this space!)
I'm trying to think if the boy characters in the older books were castigated for liking horses. Can anyone think of any? I recall Richard in Six Ponies intimating that ponies were girlish but were there any others? Even tho it was still considered a girl orientated genre then, it wasn't really fluffy or girly-girly. When I was a kid most pony mad girls were tomboys and would have run screaming from the pink glittery pony books of today! ;D
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Post by tintin on Apr 29, 2013 20:34:00 GMT 1
When I was a boy I liked books about adults (or anthropormorphic machines who are I suppose sort of honorary adults) and horses. Looking back I think I liked pony books not just because they were about horses but because they were about something that was n't childish.
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Post by Claire on Apr 29, 2013 20:46:57 GMT 1
Looking back I think I liked pony books not just because they were about horses but because they were about something that was n't childish. Thats an interesting point tintin and its linked to what we have been saying about the pink glittery books. The old style pony books were realistic and the children in them had to learn responsibility, there were often quite upsetting moments as in real life - in a way they were quite grown up. The modern pink pony books are completely childish and anodyne with anything remotely disturbing surgically removed! |
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Post by foxglove on May 7, 2013 11:26:10 GMT 1
Interesting thread. I don't have kids, but many of my friends have young daughters, and I am sometimes quite alarmed at the clear gender difference in toys, books and clothing. It has been in the news recently as a High St chain (Boots) changed its labelling policy when parents complained that toys from the Science Museum were labelled as being "for boys".
I've hardly ever met any girls who read Tintin books; I only read them because my younger brother had them. He also got given the Three Investigator series which I loved. I just enjoyed thrilling adventure stories and didn't care about the gender of the hero. I did mainly play with girls though- boys were smelly and had fleas!
When you think of "classics" of children's fiction, they mostly involve boys and girls together; Swallows & Amazons, the Famous Five and now Harry Potter. It's odd that adults forget this.
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and I am not a girly girl by any means! ;D
