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Post by kunuma on Mar 25, 2013 18:28:09 GMT 1
Has anyone seen this - in an attempt to popularise the race with the the 'general public' (aka the great unwashed!!lol) the ad draws comparisons with those who illegally 'race' horses on the roads.
Admittedly the horses raced on the roads probably have a higher survival rate - but even though I can no longer bear to watch the race, or even condone it's being held at all, I still find it a shame that the 'sport of kings' is being presented in this way.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 20:03:12 GMT 1
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Post by Claire on Mar 25, 2013 21:48:13 GMT 1
I agree an extremely unpleasant advert. Seems to be aimed at those who enjoy violence and destruction. I especially find the words at the end - "the original extreme sport" - in bad taste comsidering that it has been extreme for the poor horses who have died. I did use to like the National but there's been so little consideration given to safety of the horses in these supposedly enlightened days that I havent watched it for a few years now.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2013 7:54:22 GMT 1
I don't watch it either.
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Post by kunuma on Mar 26, 2013 20:37:21 GMT 1
Yes that't it exactly Claire, it seems to glorify the falls and the violence. What happened to appreciating that these are beautiful living creatures, giving all they have and more for nothing more than our amusement and profit. Everytime I think the human race can't disappoint me any more ....................
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Post by cally on Mar 29, 2013 15:14:41 GMT 1
I have a bumper sticker on my car saying 'Jumps Racing Kills' and I also have a t-shirt with the same statement from the Racehorse Alliance, an anti racing action group. I can't see any good in racing- it maddens me that 2 year olds get raced before their skeletons have hardened and the way most horses are kept, and then there's the 'wastage'. It could be done properly but people just want quick money and treat the horses like machines. Steeplechasing is vile- can't watch it.
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Post by fizz on Mar 29, 2013 18:26:32 GMT 1
I love steeplechasing. If you side with the fanatics who wish it to be abolished then you are putting all horse sports, even the keeping of animals at risk. Animal Aid want to see all animal use & ownership banned in time. Buying products from Lush is also supporting there cause. i never get stuff there any more. Maybe the Grand National is approaching its sell by date, but National Hunt racing is a terrific sport
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Post by fizz on Mar 29, 2013 18:27:36 GMT 1
I meant to add that I think the advert is bad & sending out all the wrong signals. Hoping all horses come back safe from the meeting this year.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2013 18:42:02 GMT 1
I notice I haven't said what an awful advert it is either....it is!
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Post by Claire on Mar 29, 2013 21:25:06 GMT 1
Although I've always loved racing I wouldnt go so far as to call people who want it abolished fanatics. Sometimes I do think they have a point, even those who want all horse based sports done away with. The older I get the more I question what our right is to put animals in danger/pain etc just for our entertainment. However on the other hand, racehorses, etc have a helluva better chance in life than for example the poor native pony foals that end up as meat cos no-one wants them. I feel I am in two minds over the issue. If only we could have a happy medium where the animal's welfare is always put first, but with the over competitiveness of people and their love of money it just will never happen
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Post by cally on Mar 30, 2013 3:11:36 GMT 1
In Australia at least, steeplechasing is the last chance for failed racehorses and the number of horse deaths does not justify it's continuance just because a minority of people get a buzz out of watching it. It is in fact banned in all but 2 states. Having worked in the professional horse industry I cannot condone the treatment race horses receive. Flat racing is fixable but the will is not there. Horses are NOT safe being forced to run and jump obstacles at speed and the high death rate clearly shows this. I am not a 'fanatic' but I am against any animals being put into life threatening or dangerous or painful situations to satisfy human greed, and our ridiculously selfish, flippant sense of 'fun' or 'excitement'. My area of interest in life is animal welfare, particularly horses, and I have had enough experience in the 'industry' to know that when money is involved, the treatment of horses is not the prime consideration. Horses aren't machines, yet we force them to do things for us with no though of whether they want to participate or not. Making them risk their lives for our 'entertainment' is unjustifiable. Maybe I am a 'fanatic': if my horse stopped enjoying trail riding I wouldn't ride him again. He likes galloping and jumping the odd natural thing that crops up, but he's not stupid enough to jump from a gallop. I LOVE horses- not what they do, I just respect them for the beautiful, intelligent animals that they are. Which is why I can't watch them being flogged, injured and killed, whether it's jumps racing or heavy handed dressage riders.
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Post by Claire on Mar 30, 2013 16:37:02 GMT 1
In Australia at least, steeplechasing is the last chance for failed racehorses and the number of horse deaths does not justify it's continuance just because a minority of people get a buzz out of watching it. It is in fact banned in all but 2 states. I'm not surprised its been banned if that is the case. Its not quite the same in the UK, altho there are inevitably a few failed flat racers there are quite a few good class flat racers which go on to jump and a lot are bred for chasing. Its still a lot more dangerous than flat racing for the horses tho. Funny you should mention dressage as for me I find it harder to watch than racing. At least running is natural to a horse, a lot of the dressage moves are not, especially with all the rolkur stuff that is appearing. I have yet to see a horse at top level dressage who looks to be actually enjoying it. Known and seen lots of horses who love racing. Its a weighty topic. Where do we draw the line between riding our horses and enjoying them and exploiting them? I think its something you think about more when you get older.
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Post by cally on Mar 31, 2013 2:41:48 GMT 1
True, Claire- my part TB loves going fast and he's 24 and he gets excited around show jumps and other horses. I agree with you about dressage after my experience working in a yard. They do SO much that is wrong, stupid and bad and are lazy and ignorant to boot. They really do treat their horses like bikes, and if the horse isn't going as well as it did last time they rode, they'll blame the horse, who has been standing in a stable all week with no loving attention and no exercise. One woman had a bad lesson and sold her $90,000 Grand Prix horse in a fit of pique! I see today another British jumps jockey has been made a quadriplegic after a fall racing. I won't ever change my opinion on jumps racing: it's a filthy sport. Everyone draws a line somewhere as to what they can tolerate- some people like watching bull fights for the excitement- but I've seen too much of the bad side after 37 years of riding, working and being with horses. We just don't have the right to force them to live rotten lives and be flogged for our entertainment. 40% of horses sent to slaughter in Australia are 'failed' racehorses under the age of 7 years; some have injuries and some have temperament issues, all caused by the wholly unnatural ways they have been kept and trained, but mostly it's just a lack of compassion. For every famous, successful racehorse that does enjoy their job, there's at least 200-300 who don't and end up in the knacker's yard.
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Post by kunuma on Mar 31, 2013 13:58:20 GMT 1
cally - well done; you are telling it like it is, and much as it makes me think about things I don't want to think about, it is good that loving horses as we all do, we can think about the welfare issues behind the picture we are presented with.
Take a group of well loved horses, fit and strong, ridden by their fond owners, and gallop them across a few fields to see which is the fastest - yes, they would love it, so would the owners and I would happily watch! That's how racing started, and nothing could be more fun!
But what changes everything is money, and what has happened now, and was for me encapsulated in that awful advertisement, was that horses are less and less thought of as sentient beings, but as disposable money makers.
Plus don't get me started on genetics and breeding TBs who can run fast at the expense of the ability to be a horse!
In my twenties I was so much more hopeful about everything to do with animals - much more vocal about rescue, puppy farms, etc. It's when you realise that nothing changes, and in some cases just gets worse, that you wonder more and more about our pet owning habits.
The only thing that will save the awful situation we have in dogs at the moment, with those who care least about them, owning the most and doing the most breeding - is to acknowledge that they are making money from this, and ALL that will bring it down to a manageable level is to make it a great deal harder to use any animal as a money machine.
Stuffing micro chips in people's pets is going to do nothing to stop the breeding of fighting dogs!!
Bring back the dog licence, for ENTIRE dogs - so those of us who want to breed and show our dogs, have to pay for the privilege. Caring breeders already pay a fortune for health tests etc, and it would just be one more thing - the money from the licences should subsidise pet dogs being spayed and neutered, and once your dog is spayed or neutered, then it gets a FREE licence. Will it ever happen, nope!
I say straight out that I am an Animal Aid supporter - I wouldn't want to live without my own dogs, but knowing the conditions other so called pets are living under - I am very often ashamed to call myself a pet owner.
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Post by cally on Apr 1, 2013 0:39:26 GMT 1
Yes- what we've done to dogs, and a lesser extent, cats through selective breeding is horrible. I was really pleased to see Crufts finally stopped encouraging tail docking, but it's too little too late. In Australia, you must licence your dog: I mean, you are MEANT to. We got our lovely Lizzie 18 months ago from the RSPCA and she, like all puppies that leave their premises, was desexed, microchipped and vaccinated. M'chipping makes owners responsible for what their dogs get up to and reunites owners with pets- even Star is microchipped! It's funny, but we have stricter laws regarding pets down here, but you have so many more really good rescue charities. We have nothing equivalent to Redwings or Bransby, even though we have so much more land. Once (if) I get a clean-ish bill of health I was intending to write a paper on the inadequacies of the horse welfare and rehabilitation system, such as it is, compared to the British model. If I could get a bursary or grant from someone somewhere, or even just get enough $ full stop, I'd love to come over to the UK and visit as many equine charities as possible.
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Post by tintin on Apr 2, 2013 21:45:58 GMT 1
I know its probably not much consolation, but the advert is very fake. The locations in Everton are not contiguous so the race would be impossible. It is almost certainly some electronic trickery as I can't see the Liverpool Police allowing half of this. I'm not a fan of racing, to me it is all about money.
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Post by Claire on Apr 2, 2013 23:28:44 GMT 1
Yeah its fake thank heavens but jstill don't like the message its sending out. Channel 4 Racing really has gone down hill, I used to really like watching it, even to the extent of dragging myself out of post hangover sleep on a Saturday morning to watch the morning line. Still what can you expect now my nemesis Clare Balding has taken over that too.
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Post by cally on Apr 3, 2013 4:57:47 GMT 1
I read an article on the net- can't recall where unfortunately- by a female UK jumps jockey that reveals what these people really think (or don't). She doesn't read any literature condemning jumps racing, probably so she doesn't have to feel bad. Everything this idiot said, supposedly in defence of her 'sport', made her look ignorant, cruel and firmly in denial. Having worked professionally with horses, I can tell you that this is all too common. Everything she said was inaccurate and ignorant, down to 'it's worse if jockeys get hurt than horses, 'cos they're ONLY horses', but humans CHOOSE to do this, horses are FORCED. AARGH! Can't wait 'til this crap is banned!
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Post by Claire on Apr 3, 2013 11:44:00 GMT 1
Sadly that is the attitude of so many in the equine professional world - that horses are somehow expendable or a commodity. One of the reasons I am starting to go off any form of professional equine sport.
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Post by tintin on Apr 3, 2013 12:29:19 GMT 1
"The importance of being a good horsemaster should be impressed on every mounted soldier. He should be taught to look upon his horse as his best friend, to study it, to take a pride in its appearance and to look after its wants before his own"
"they're ONLY horses'
Compare and contrast, drawing conclusions where appropriate
As our old examiners might have put it.
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Post by cally on Apr 5, 2013 9:25:13 GMT 1
That female jumps jockey- Katie Walsh- who I described in my last post, well her ride DIED of a heart attack at Aintree after a race yesterday.
Moronic hypocrite.
Something like 38 horses have died running in the grand national since 2000.
Another victory down here today- a large beer company that had sponsored a jumps racing event in the past has withdrawn it's support due to concerns over animal cruelty- Thank you Coopers!
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Post by kunuma on Apr 5, 2013 13:38:08 GMT 1
That's the other side of it of course, the way that we have bred TB's to have heart/lung problems, bones that snap easily, and all the other genetic side effects of breeding purely for speed. I was surprised and pleased to hear an interview about the race this morning which actually criticised it, of course they then had the obligatory jockey defending it - but it's a start that more people are daring to criticise in public!!
I'm thinking I should campaign for the replacement of TBs by heavy horse racing.
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Post by Claire on Apr 5, 2013 16:05:01 GMT 1
That's the other side of it of course, the way that we have bred TB's to have heart/lung problems, bones that snap easily, and all the other genetic side effects of breeding purely for speed. Funny was just talking about this particular point to my non-horsy friend last night, saying that I thought a lot of the problems in the Grand National in the last few years are because racehorses are being bred more for speed now whereas in the past they were more 'chasing types' being bred and trained. Now theres a lot more flat racers ending up on the jumps circuit, less of the big-boned types with a lot of stamina. Money talks and with there being more money on the flat, less of the old fashioned chase types will be bred or trained. Plus obviously the extremely long distance of the National means that those bred more for speed than stamina may struggle. Incredibly there are horses entered every year who have never even run over 3m!!! Also there are those who were only in novice chasers the year before and horses who are actually out of the handicap (ie they carry more weight than their handicap mark allots them due to there being a minimum weight of 10 stone) For the race to continue I think they should: Lower the number of runners considerably, 20 at the absolute most Shorten the distance Not allow horses out of the handicap to run (or raise the lowest handicap rating allowed) Not allow horses to run unless they have had at least 2 seasons running in handicap (not novice) chases Only allow horses to run if they have won or placed at 3m or more Not allow horses who have had a number of falls in their form as they just won't be able to cope with the jumps Sadly I don't think the authorities could/would do many of the above. Really the onus for much of this falls to the racehorse owners and trainers but with the money and prestige involved owners are always entering totally unsuitable horses for the race.
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Post by fizz on Apr 5, 2013 17:37:07 GMT 1
If a horse dies in the race tomorrow it may well be the last Grand National. It has survived all these years but increase in media & the internet will have added to its demise. in the past people saw a snowy picture on TV or a newsreel & didn't see the injured horse too well & it wasn't "big news" & the animal rights people (who in the main have no love of animals) didn't have a say. Back in 1954 the 'National was discussed in Westminster after 4 horses died in the race...only 35 runners that year too. It was agreed it was a freak result. Curiously the death rate has increased in the last twenty years & every year a horse has been seriously hurt. In 1989 a horse fell & rolled back into the ditch at Bechers Brook. It's neck was broken by the RSPCA officer pulling it out by it's neck. (It's neck may have been pre-injured to be fair) but would you pull a motorist out of a car crash by the neck? After this the RSPCA lobbied for modifications to the fences. The fences are now smaller, the drops have been reduced, the fences have been narrowed so horses are squeezed up to the inside causing more to be brought down. Speed is the killer & these modifications coupled with the differences in horses running now have contributed to the rise in injuries & fatalities. A lot more racehorses are inbred to unsound stock, both horses killed last year were inbred to Northern Dancer & both had flat racing pedigrees. Horses are no longer "out of the handicap" & the fields are of higher quality than in the 1960s & 70s. The race is more competitive, it is the one jockeys want to win & they will go like the clappers into the first with a shortened run to it on Saturday. If horses die then the RSPCA must take at least part of the blame.
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Post by Claire on Apr 5, 2013 20:34:30 GMT 1
Horses are no longer "out of the handicap" A quick look at the declarations for the race tomorrow confirm there are 3 horses out of the handicap and they're not far out (when I looked a few days ago there were about 7), better than it used to be and I seem to remember they upped the min handicap mark a few years ago. (But haven't taken much notice of the race for about 10 years now) No I don't think quality is the main problem I think its unsuitability too. I've seen horses that normally run over 2 1/2 miles being entered for the race before. That's ridiculous. Incidentally I wondered what the death toll was for the Fox Hunters Chase, the amateur race run over the National Fences and tragically a horse was killed in it this year. Maybe they should just scrap that course and run on the Mildmay (Aintree's easier course) instead.
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Post by cally on Apr 5, 2013 23:06:52 GMT 1
Every jumps race is an equine version of a car smash, the grand national is a demolition derby. Some 'traditions' have to go the way of fox hunting and badger baiting- far far away. Watch show jumping OR watch flat racing (yuk) but the two just don't go together. It's ironic that if if a rider thrashed their horse around show jumping course where the jumps were as high as in jumps racing (watch Jose La Rocca on the now deceased Oki Doki- awful) horse people would be appalled, but when it's 35 horses on a 3 mile course, it seems it's ok. Doesn't make sense to me.....
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Post by Claire on Apr 6, 2013 1:43:14 GMT 1
Locking this thread now as I think we have all made our points. I am sure all of us on here love horses and don't want to see them hurt, but we all have different views on which horse sports are acceptable or not (and some of us like me may be rather conflicted!) and I think we should respect other people's views even if we don't share them.
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