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Post by Claire on Jan 17, 2013 14:10:06 GMT 1
This month, along with Blind Beauty, we have also selected a non-pony book by 'author of the month' K M Peyton. Join in with both - or either one. The book is easy to find and I have a copy I can lend anyone. Kunuma do you want to borrow it....? Attachments:
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Post by susanb on Jan 19, 2013 0:09:53 GMT 1
Took a vacation day and had a delightful lie in...breakfast in bed with Pattern of Roses, read it straight through.
Loved it again, the second time around for me.....it will be interesting to see what others make of it...it's unlike much of her other work, very ethereal....fey, almost.
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Post by Claire on Jan 20, 2013 20:36:28 GMT 1
Sounds like a great day off susan!
Finished Blind Beauty so moving on to this one now. What with these 2 and the one I'm doing for a review I'm having a positive orgy of KMP reading!
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Post by Claire on Jan 31, 2013 15:56:06 GMT 1
Just checking has anyone else read this? Can we start a dicussion yet?
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Post by fizz on Jan 31, 2013 19:34:38 GMT 1
Will have finished it soon. The cover on the copy I am reading (that is dedicated to Dave's Mother) is by Wendy herself.
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Post by Claire on Feb 20, 2013 16:18:30 GMT 1
Well not sure who has read this yet but I thought I'd better start the ball rolling before we start on the next author of the month!
SPOILERS BELOW - please don't read if you haven't finished the book
For me this book is quite different from most of KMP's which are fairly down to earth. This one deals with the supernatural (apart from this one she only wrote 2 other supernatural/fantasy books as far as I can remember - tho I'm sure someone will put me right if I'm wrong!) Apart from the fact its partly supernatural, the tone is a lot more otherworldly and lyrical than in most of her books - tho it does have a lot of her trademark reality merged into this.
Although I found this a gripping story, very well written, it was one of the those books which leave you with a lot of question marks. Still not really sure I understand it!
Here are some of my questions/discussion points about the book. Feel free to answer these or talk about your own views:
Is it a ghost or a time slip novel? Sometimes Tom appears to be more of a ghost but most of the time it seems that Tim is getting a view of the past, so I would tend more towards a time slip. Or it could something else like Tim has some sort of pyschic connection between him and Tim possibly because of their initials...? Or os it all in Tim's mind (this last explanation tho wouldn't explain how Tim recognises Tom in the school photo)
Why do Tom and Tim have a connection? The book seems to suggest they are similar in some ways, both love art and both are somehow dissatisfied with their lives but in many ways they are not that much alike.
What do you think is the role of Tom's connection to Tim? Its obvious there is a purpose behind him appearing to Tim. But is it a) to help him change his life by going against his parent's wishes that he follow in his fathers footsteps and pursue his own dreams or is it b) to save him from a similar death in the ice? Because if the latter, actually Tom doesnt save him from the ice, as even tho Tim knows Tom died he goes on it as if to dare fate. Its Rebecca who appears and stops him skating. Also its not even clear if she really saves him or not as he didnt seem to be in any immediate danger.
If 'a', which perhaps seems more likely (Rebecca says "he brought you back to life") how does he do it? Is it because trying to find details of Toms life snaps Tim out of his apathy? Once again I actually think its his friendship with Rebecca who does most of that. Also from Tom's viewpoint why does Tom do it? Was KMP trying intentionally to make this all confusing and blur everyone's roles? The last line sort of suggests it - "who would ever know what Tom's role in life had been, let alone death?" Sometimes I think this makes it a bit messy and unsatisfying, other times I think the whole complexity of it is brilliant - not sure which I have decided on!
What do people think of Rebecca and Tim's relationship? Not sure if I'm totally convinced that Tim would fall for her - I have a feeling that he would probably be more attracted to a modern day version of Netty. I do love her as a character tho and she is very well drawn and sympathetic.
Just as a postscript I like the fact that KMP managed to squeeze in a couple of slightly horsy bits with Rebecca's horse Fred and Tim's job as a farrier.
Anyway I'd be interested to hear other people's views on the book.
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Post by susanb on Feb 20, 2013 18:24:34 GMT 1
I think the book is essentially about expectations, and how easy it is to be trapped by them. Tom is trapped by his father's (and society's) low expectations. Tim is trapped by his parent's specific expectations.
Tom is thinking, the day he dies, about going into the army or leaving the village for other work....he's realized that his life doesn't have to be defined by the parameters that others, outside himself, have set.....unfortunately, he's left it too late. Tim, inspired by Tom, doesn't let himself get led down a path that will be very hard to turn back on.
BTW, I took it as a time slip too!
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Post by Claire on Feb 20, 2013 19:01:26 GMT 1
I think the book is essentially about expectations, and how easy it is to be trapped by them. Tom is trapped by his father's (and society's) low expectations. TBH the poor sod doesnt really have much of a choice does he, being from his class at that time. Its a tragedy that so many people were robbed of their potential due to their station in life. I think this is probably another theme of the book. Its so sad the way he can't better himself, he has trouble fitting in his art with his long working hours and when he tentatively tries to put himself on an equal footing with the girl he loves, it ends in disaster. I have the feeling that his death was almost considered by the author as more of a release than a tragedy. Possibly somehow Tom senses Tim's dissatisfaction and because he himself didnt have a choice hopes that Tim will take advantage of being able to do so. Its not a time slip in the normal way where the 2 characters from different times talk to each other. The odd thing with this story is that Tim senses Tom trying to communicate with him but I can't recall anywhere in the historical section of the book where Tom senses Tim. Have I missed something? Lol all these Tims and Toms get a bit confusing!
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Post by rallycairn on Feb 20, 2013 19:07:32 GMT 1
I felt like the visions Tim had of Tom and the past were like re-enactments or imprints of the past that Tim was able to see because of the parallels he had with Tom. But it's interesting to me that the close of the book is in a way very sad, the words about Tom probably not being remembered, even though it was Tom's story and the waste that was his early death that inspired Tim not to waste his own life. Seeing Tom lose his chance gave Tim the courage to buck his parents' plans for his life.
So you are left with a very melancholy message -- that you will be forgotten, or will you? if you inspire even one other life. And Tom inspired Tim, and before that Netty to live out her life very differently than she would have if she hadn't known him, and sent him into the water after Mermaid, also May, who was quite taken with Tom and implied her life was very touched by him. Very haunting altogether, both for Tim and for the reader. BTW, I could NOT find my copy and wasn't able to re-read, so I'm going off memory and may have some details wrong.
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Post by darkhorse on Feb 28, 2013 22:47:49 GMT 1
Is it OK if I join in with this one late? I haven't got round to reading it yet....
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Post by rallycairn on Mar 1, 2013 14:38:27 GMT 1
Please join, Darkhorse!
I got up in my attic and found my copy and re-read it. It's interesting in light of Claire's question about the nature of the events -- time slip? ghost story? or what, that Peyton does include several thoughts on that subject within the book. Early on, there are some passages that talk about impressions of the past that Tim can see; there are also several ghost references, with Tim and Rebecca wondering if Tim is seeing ghosts, etc.; but then finally on the anniversary of Tom's death, when Tim is walking to the lake to skate, Tim wonders whether it is all his imagination. (I find that one hard to believe, that he could imagine so much detail that turns out to be accurate, etc.) So anyway, big surprise! (not) that the nature of what goes on is ambiguous, since the author herself gives readers options as to what it is.
Although I think May romanticized Tom more than a little when she talked about his Perfect Spiritual Grace, in that I don't think Tom was as serenely reconciled to his life as she thought he was, I DO think he was well aware of the limits of his life options given his birth and social class, and while he found them frustrating and hard I don't think he was bitter -- at least not yet, not at the time of his death. Though Tim wonders to Rebecca if the PSG would've grown a little thin had he lived longer, and I think it probably would have.
I also like that Tim wonders if Rebecca saw herself in Netty, though I don't think there are as many parallels between Rebecca and Netty as there were between Tom and Tim.
I wish Tom had been able to appreciate May more and been a bit more aware of Netty's self-centeredness and frivolity. Though Tom does recognize the feeling in May's face as he dies, even if he doesn't realize that her strong feeling is for him.
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Post by rallycairn on Mar 1, 2013 14:56:49 GMT 1
Well not sure who has read this yet but I thought I'd better start the ball rolling before we start on the next author of the month! SPOILERS BELOW - please don't read if you haven't finished the book What do you think is the role of Tom's connection to Tim? Its obvious there is a purpose behind him appearing to Tim. But is it a) to help him change his life by going against his parent's wishes that he follow in his fathers footsteps and pursue his own dreams or is it b) to save him from a similar death in the ice? Because if the latter, actually Tom doesnt save him from the ice, as even tho Tim knows Tom died he goes on it as if to dare fate. Its Rebecca who appears and stops him skating. Also its not even clear if she really saves him or not as he didnt seem to be in any immediate danger. If 'a', which perhaps seems more likely (Rebecca says "he brought you back to life") how does he do it? Is it because trying to find details of Toms life snaps Tim out of his apathy? Once again I actually think its his friendship with Rebecca who does most of that. ... What do people think of Rebecca and Tim's relationship? Not sure if I'm totally convinced that Tim would fall for her - I have a feeling that he would probably be more attracted to a modern day version of Netty. I do love her as a character tho and she is very well drawn and sympathetic. As far as the purpose of Tom appearing to Tim, I think it's not so much saving his physical life as it is saving him from wasting his life, your "a" option, Claire. And although certainly his friendship with Rebecca, and learning how she was struggling with her parents and her life's direction, was a big part of getting him involved in the present day, I actually think it was more seeing the waste that was Tom's death at such a young age (the death of someone with out-of-the-ordinary sensibilities and talents, with whom Tim had some particular connections and shared sensibilities) that helped Tim drastically alter the course of his life, more than Rebecca, to me -- though I'm sure all of it worked together. And speaking of all of it working together -- I think that maybe rather than having to draw really strict parallels between the past and the present, which could easily result in a story that is overly contrived, we're just supposed to see how in the past the "pattern of roses" went pretty badly for one character (Tom), mixed for Netty (I'm not happy anyone has to live with a great tragedy, but it does seem to have made her a better person), and pretty well for May (long happy life with husband and children). Seeing this pattern, the characters in the present are inspired to change the pattern so that it makes a much more satisfying picture for them. In other words, the pattern was in danger of going awry for them, too, before they saw what had happened in the past and altered it. I think the whole thing is deftly done -- I like the nuances and ambiguities. And like I said earlier, I think if there had been point-by-point similarities between Tim and Tom, Rebecca and Netty, a contemporary counterpart to May in the past, etc. -- it all would have seemed overly contrived and less compelling. Thanks to anyone who read this far! I know I run on and on -- it's just enthusiasm for the books, though I know it gets tiresome for the other forum members. I'm sure I sound bombastic or something, but it's just that I enjoy mulling these things over "out loud" with others.
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Post by Claire on Mar 1, 2013 15:00:03 GMT 1
Yes darkhorse just join in when you are ready. But be careful not to read the posts after the spoiler message before you've read the book. More spoilers below btw.... I wish Tom had been able to appreciate May more and been a bit more aware of Netty's self-centeredness and frivolity. Though Tom does recognize the feeling in May's face as he dies, even if he doesn't realize that her strong feeling is for him. Its interesting that Tim, initially like Tom being attracted to a pretty face and charm, is turned off by Rebecca not having these qualities. But after a while he becomes more appreciative of her own qualities. Perhaps if Tom had lived longer he would have learned to appreciate May more. I dont think there are any similarities between Netty and Rebecca. I think they are supposed to be diametrically opposed and possibly it is Tim's ability to see beyond the surface and appreciate Rebecca that saves him, as it is due to his friendship with Rebecca that she comes running to stop him going in the ice. As i said before tho I am not sure that she does actually save him! Again its quite ambiguous. It does fit in well if she does save him, as Netty causes Tom's death inadvertantly then it would be an interesting parallel if Rebecca saved Tim's. On the subject of ambiguity - what do people feel about ambigious books or films. I confess to finding them a bit frustrating. Maybe I have too much of a literal brain but I like stuff to be explained - probably comes from years of reading Agatha Christie books where you expect the whole crime to be worked out and explained at the end!
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Post by rallycairn on Mar 1, 2013 15:07:18 GMT 1
VG points, Claire, esp about Rebecca and Netty being opposed to each other rather than similar.
I don't like those kinds of stories where the _whole plot_ is ambiguous -- i.e., those stories where at the end they throw in the "twist" ending where you are left wondering whether anything really happened at all or if it was all in the protagonist's mind. Or even worse, the horror films where it is made quite clear that it is all in the main character's mind -- in which case, what was the point of the story? Like this one horror film, and slowly weird things happen, like all the characters finding out they share the same birthday, and they are getting killed off one-by-one, til -- again, big surprise! -- we find out at the end the protagonist suffers multiple personality disorder. So where's the horror, to find out that no one is being killed, it's all just one person's thoughts?
But things like the exact nature of Tim's experiences -- time slip or haunting or what? I enjoy mulling over those things and finding different possible connections and interpretations.
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Post by susanb on Mar 1, 2013 16:15:26 GMT 1
I don't think it's so much that it's a good pattern or a bad pattern....I think Peyton is showing that any paradigm is intrinsically bad simply because individuals don't fit neatly into patterns.
She's shown us Tim and Tom, side by side, one of the paradigms is all thorns, the other all roses, but in neither case does the boy fit the pattern....Tom doesn't realize it till too late, but thanks to the insight he's gained from Tom, Tim does realize it and breaks out of the pattern, the paradigm.
It strikes me to that Peyton has also shown that time had done little to change the power of the paradigm......in both Tom and Tim's time, the boys are expected to follow the path of their fathers. And what of the girls?
Here's the etymology of paradigm:
late 15c., from Late Latin paradigma "pattern, example," especially in grammar, from Greek paradeigma "pattern, model; precedent, example," from paradeiknynai "exhibit, represent," literally "show side by side," from para- "beside" (see para- (1)) + deiknynai "to show" (cognate with Latin dicere "to show;" see diction). Related: Paradigmatic; paradigmatical.
I don't think I've come across a book that used word play this effectively since E.L. Konigsburg's Father's Arcane Daughter
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Post by Claire on Mar 1, 2013 21:47:43 GMT 1
I know I run on and on -- it's just enthusiasm for the books, though I know it gets tiresome for the other forum members. I'm sure I sound bombastic or something, but it's just that I enjoy mulling these things over "out loud" with others. Not at all Rallycairn. I am just grateful I'm not the only one burbling away to myself - that would be pretty sad! The whole point of these reading circles is that we can share our thoughts about the books rather than just say it was good or bad. Reading other people's musings on the books also can make you see things you missed or give you a different perspective on the book.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2013 7:57:07 GMT 1
Rallycairn I wish I could ramble on! I find it hard to put down in words how I feel about a book apart from "I love ths book" or "I hate this book" as you've proably seen from some of my reviews
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Post by Claire on Mar 2, 2013 20:52:37 GMT 1
Did you study English Lit at Uni Rallycairn? I know from experience it does make one a little verbose when it comes to discussing books!
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Post by rallycairn on Mar 2, 2013 22:54:49 GMT 1
Thanks for all the encouraging words, Claire, Rosie, and everyone!
Claire, why, however did you guess?? lol. Yes, it's true, I had a double major in English lit and Psychology, and went on to get my Master's and Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology -- not that I've practiced in over 10 years now. Mental health was a very wearing field -- takes it out of you emotionally. And I worked with some very hardcore criminally mentally ill.
But anyway, back to the great discussions.
Susan, I am mulling over your post! Interesting comments.
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Post by Claire on Mar 3, 2013 13:15:47 GMT 1
Wow Rallycairn I also did a double major (well the Brit equivalent) in English Lit & Psychology!!! I never worked in the field of psych tho, except for doing some psychology lecturing. I imagine it can be emotionally draining. It would be interesting to compare the Lit syllabuses of English and American universities.
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Post by Claire on Mar 9, 2013 22:06:05 GMT 1
A bit off topic, but going back to whether people like or dislike ambiguous plots/endings in books/films, etc - I thought I was a bit literal minded and didnt much like ambiguity but I'm actually nowhere near as bad as most people judging from reading forum discussions of the recent TV series May Day. The majority of people seemed almost offended that there were a few things left to the imagination - the message that seemed to come across was that they had wasted 5 hours of their life watching the programme as not every little thing was spelt out in letters 3 foot tall for them! God, we British are an unimaginative nation, anything a bit out of the ordinary and we haven't a clue. Explains why totally formulaic sh*t like Midsomer Murders have been going for donkeys years. Thats why I usually prefer American drama to British nowadays, at least it attempts to do something different - even if it sometimes fails. Anyway the upshot of all this blather is that I think I do like a little ambiguity after all!!!
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Post by rallycairn on Mar 10, 2013 16:20:47 GMT 1
Ermm, welcome to the dark -- or should I say GREY? side, Claire! lol
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Post by Claire on Mar 10, 2013 16:31:26 GMT 1
Lol rallycairn. Funny how one does not always know themselves! I think I'll always prefer the tightly plotted story over ambiguity, but I'm certainly not against writers experimenting with it. Mind you I'm definitely not a fan of totally obscure things. For instance does anyone know what the film Donny Darko was about? I keep meaning to get hold of a copy with the directors commentary on it so I can find out what the hell it was all about! I sometimes feel that obscurity is a bit of a cover up for lack of writing talent or ability to formulate a coherent plot. I'm not criticising KMP here btw - oviously not the case as she has oodles of talent and anyhow I wouldn't call the book obscure, just ambiguous.
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Post by kunuma on Mar 11, 2013 18:12:43 GMT 1
Well have deliberately not read the previous posts and have just finished reading the book. This is probably where I will be on my own, I didn't like it! Yet again, not only do I not like her characters, this time I actively disliked them, there were also a few remarks, put into her characters mouths, but no doubt how the author thought, that really made me not too fond of her either!! Seems all her young modern characters spend their entire spoilt time moaning about their parents - I have to say, if you want to moan about the chance to be supported through uni by your parents, go off and try doing it as an unsupported adult and see how much fun that is! Yet again KMP managed tp push rather too many of the wrong buttons for me - but leaving all that aside, I honestly don't see the point of the story! I have read and watched many along similar lines, and so was expecting a sort of putting old wrongs right, sort of ending - though Tim was far too selfish to put anything right in my opinion!! So the ending of the book left me going, "erm, and so ....." OK will now go and read thread and then hide from the wrath of her fans!
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Post by fizz on Mar 11, 2013 19:11:49 GMT 1
When she wrote that book things were quite different educationally. When she was a student & indeed when I was in the 1980s, higher education was free & grants were available. It is so much different now, then kids had a second chance & mature students could go to college. Now this poxy government doesn't want anyone to have social mobility, or any education beyond the most basic. Rant over! I read this some years ago & enjoyed it, didn't like it as much this time round. I do not think it has dated that well & I agree Tim is a spoiled young person & there are a lot of stereotypes within it. I found it boring & tedious. Sorry.
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Post by Claire on Mar 11, 2013 19:45:03 GMT 1
No need to apologise folks if you didnt like it. As I've said before it would be boring (and rather weird!) if we all liked the same books. I agree Tim was a spoilt brat, poor little rich kid. I much preferred Tom. Saying that it is hard when your parents push you to do things you don't want to do in life so I wasnt entirely unsympathetic to Tim. I did really like Rebecca tho.
When I went to Uni (early 90s) it wasn't free, it was when student loans came in. I did do the first year part time when I was working which was bloody hard work and my parents weren't rich enough to pay for the fees - so I understand where Kunuma is coming from.
Going back to above - who did people prefer Tim or Tom - or did you prefer the historical to the present day bit or vice versa? I also liked the historical bit better. She's pretty good at historical stories.
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Post by darkhorse on Mar 12, 2013 23:43:53 GMT 1
Last as usual! I thought it was well-written but it didn't grip me the way Blind Beauty did. I picked it up and put it down a few times before I finished it. I agree with Kunuma and Fizz, I didn't like Tim much and didn't feel much sympathy with him. I liked the parts with Tom in the best and it was very sad when he died, but if Tim had fallen in the ice it wouldn't have bothered me! I found the story line quite confusing and I would have preferred a more straight forward story. I'm not sure whether to vote average or good. Average for the story but good for the quality of the writing.
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Post by rallycairn on Mar 13, 2013 3:28:24 GMT 1
Agree that no one should worry about posting negative opinions! Makes it fun to have different views!
I do want to defend Tim just a bit, though. It's not like he was just a lazy whiner wanting everything handed to him -- he was quite willing to work, and work hard -- he just wasn't sure at the beginning what work he wanted to do.
And he did have some creative/artistic talents that were in danger of being squelched, which I do think can be very soul killing if you let it happen. And, too, it was a pretty big leap for a posh public-school kid to commit to a working trade and a one-room walk-up type of living situation.
Yes, he had a safety net in his parents, but in fact he DIDN'T go "crying back to his mum." Inspired by what happened to Tom, Tim was able to take advantage of the fact that he had very different life circumstances (socioeconomic) and not waste the chance to choose what kind of life he wanted.
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Post by Claire on Mar 13, 2013 12:38:27 GMT 1
Good points rallycairn. Also in his defence, he was recovering from a serious illness and judging from some of his thoughts and actions, was possibly suffering from depression - which would have meant small problems felt huge to him. I guess its just easier to sympathise with characters who have more tangible problems such as Tessa in Blind Beauty or Peter in Fly by Night with his awful father.
Reading this book has made me realise that another theme KMP keeps returning too is problematic parents. In this book both Tim and Rebecca have parents who don't get them, there's Peter's dad, Tessa's dreadful parents and Jonathan's (from The Team etc) overbearing mother. From what I have read about the author, she was in a similar situation to Tim. Her parents expected her to go to University but she was very artistic and went to art school instead - where she actually dropped out to elope! Its possible she was writing partly about her own experiences.
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Post by rallycairn on Mar 13, 2013 18:42:27 GMT 1
I can probably really sympathize with Tim because I myself wish I had taken a very different life path career-wise. I'm so overqualified for any job I'd really like to have -- my parents really pushed me to go straight from my bachelor's to my Ph.D. program and, since I didn't have any other clear ideas, I did it, and have regretted the course that took me down ever since. I didn't have Tim's backbone! Most of my 20's wasted being in school, and after not too many years post-doc I left the field anyway. I would have been much better off taking some time off after my bachelor's was finished, to explore different options, and find what I really wanted to do, rather than going straight into graduate school.
And yes, I know, these are first world problems, but still, all of us only get one life, and there are no do-overs!
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