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Post by Claire on Feb 17, 2016 22:25:42 GMT 1
It's hard to believe this is the first time we have read a Jill book in the reading circle!! But that will be rectified shortly as I have selected Jill Enjoys Her Ponies as our late winter read. Although this is the fourth in the series, if you haven't read any of the series before you will not find it hard to get into this one. Although, like me, I think most of the forum members have read the books a few times before! I have chosen this one out of the series as I think there may be a difference in opinion as to the character of Jill in this particular book. If you haven't got a copy already the book is very easy to find in paperback form and cheap. Unfortunately harder to find and a lot more expensive in hardback. If you do go for a paperback try and choose one of the older ones which have the original illustrations and non-revised text. If anyone has a spare copy they can lend out please post here. Discussion to start in approx 2 weeks time.
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Post by susanb on Feb 18, 2016 0:46:11 GMT 1
I'm in! I think I've only read this one once, so a good one for me!
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Post by tintin on Feb 18, 2016 2:01:22 GMT 1
I've not long finished it as part of a first time read through the Jill books (yes I am a complete Jill newbie) - mine is a 1993 paperback so I hope it's not too different, still has the feel of the fifties
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Post by trixiepony on Mar 9, 2016 12:28:19 GMT 1
Cool I'm in, got a copy.
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Post by Claire on Mar 11, 2016 20:02:59 GMT 1
WARNING - SOME SPOILERS BELOW
Hi all, I've finished reading it. Has anyone else finished or ready to add comments. I'd especially be interested to see what other peoples' response is to these two questions re. the book:
1. Does anyone (other than myself!) feel that Jill is becoming slightly irritating/a bit of a pot-hunter in this book?
2. Do you feel like Jill comes off worse when compared to Dinah Dean and if so do you think Ruby Ferguson has done this deliberately?
I always feel this is the book in the series when I stop really liking Jill and begin to feel a bit critical of her. I think its the start of her rather smug and snobbish view of people who don't think the same as she does, and of her pot-hunterish tendancies.
I think Jill definitely comes off worse when compared to Dinah. Ruby F was a talented writer and quite insightful of people's attitudes and short-comings so I really can't see this comparison between the pair as anything but deliberate.
For me, Dinah is a bit like Jinny and other horsy heroines who don't really care if they break the rules or upset people in their effort to do what they think is right. Jill to me has always been a bit of a conformist, and is quite preoccupied with what others think of her. She admires well bred horses, winners and top riders such as Capt Cholly Sawcutt. Her main preoccupation when she finds out she can't ride at the Chatton Show is that she is missing her last chance to win the under 14 classes! Even when Black Boy has colic Jill actually says she is frantic because its is only a fortnight off the fete, not because she is worried about the poor pony.
The first comparison between the Jill and Dinah comes near the beginning of the story when Dinah first appears in totally unsuitable clothes looking 'frightful' and if you have read the first book in the series, Jill's Gymkhana, you will remember that Jill was exactly the same at the start of that book. The difference is that Jill's main goal in that story was to win a rosette at a gymkhana whereas Dinah, once she learns to ride (incidentally Dinah teaches herself to ride and does not have a handy mentor as with Jill and Martin Lowe), has more lofty goals. Jill spends the book thinking about prizes she can win and about showing Mrs. Darcy's hack. She casts her usual scorn on those who aren't as horse mad or as good riders as she is, being especially scornful of the riders at Moorside show. She is rude to the 'daily' woman and impatient if things don't go her own way. Meanwhile Dinah has found out that a local man is selling horses for meat and is working out how to rescue them. Ironically Jill meets this man herself and dislikes him but is too wrapped up in her own concerns to find out what is going on. The bit that really makes me think that Ruby F. is definitely comparing Jill detrimentally to Dinah is on page 118:
I (says Jill) was struck dumb by this amazing kid. "You'd have done it yourself," said Dinah calmly and I said, "I wouldn't have had the nerve"
Completely true. But this does make me think back to A Stable for Jill when Jill rescued an ill-treated pony pulling a cart in the street. It was only a couple of books ago in the series but Jill is nowhere near as sympathetic a character as she was then.
I do think Ruby F. is to some extent criticising her own heroine. Its almost as if Jill has taken on a life of her own and the author disapproves of her at times. This of course does make her a pretty realistic character. There are certainly more Jills in the horsy world than Dinahs. It's a sort of balance between making a character warts n all enough to be real but without causing the reader to completely lose empathy for that character. In this book for me I'm leaning slightly to the latter but I still can't quite completely dislike Jill because not only do you recognise quite unadmirable things that you yourself may have done in Jill's actions (I'm sure we've all done something similar to Jill's sulking and not going to the Chatton show as a spectator). But also because there are moments when Jill realises her faults and has attacks of conscience which make her do the right thing almost in spite of herself. Giving the riding clothes to Dinah and bringing her food are quite courageous things for her to do as it goes against all her conformist principles. She also realises the error of her ways in under-estimating the competition at Moorside show.
Sorry if I've gone on a bit, I've been stuck in bed with a bad attack of bronchitis for 2 days and I'm still too weak and feeble to do anything physical. So I'm exercising my pen (or rather computer keyboard) instead! Anyway I'd be really interested to hear if anyone shares these views or thinks I'm talking a load of horse droppings, lol.
One last point before I let someone else get a word in - if you have read Pony Jobs for Jill and the dreadful 'secretary episode' it is atcually near the end of Jill Enjoys Her Ponies that Capt Cholly Sawcutt actually offers Jill the job in his stables when she leaves school. A couple of years later he has THAT complete U-turn which comes in Pony Jobs !!
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Post by tintin on Mar 12, 2016 10:21:51 GMT 1
I have finished the book and will comment fully soon, but I think she has become an equivocal character in this book who could turn either way good or bad, and I am nervous of reading the other books. You think "Jill, Jill don't take the wrong path". She seems to have forgotten where she has come from, which is always bad
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Post by darkhorse on Mar 19, 2016 18:49:43 GMT 1
I dithered between voting for good or very good. I eventually decided on good as I don't think it's one of the best in the series. It meanders along a bit without a real purpose. I've read this 2 or 3 times before and never really noticed that Jill and Dinah were being compared but after reading your review of it Claire they do seem to be. Especially when she turns up in unsuitable clothes for riding. Wasn't there an illustration in Jill's Gymkhana where Jill is riding or holding BlackBoy in a dress? Also when Dinah turns up at the Fete/Gymkhana and says something like if you want to help horses start with these, it makes Jill and her friend's efforts seem a bit paltry compared to going and stealing horses to save them. I think the author has always been a little critical of Jill because she often has her doing the wrong thing and then she gets her come-uppance at the end of it. Or she feels guilty and realises she has done wrong. Jill is a very realistic character because of her faults and you do synmpathise with some of the things she does wrong. I agree, however, that she becomes less sympathetic in later books and I agree also that she turns into a bit of a Pot Hunter.
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Post by susanb on Mar 20, 2016 19:08:35 GMT 1
I've just finished my re-read, and the thing that strikes me most isn't that Jill has become a pot hunter (she always did like competitions) or that she's just annoyed by, and a bit of a stinker to, Dinah. What struck me most is that Jill's "adventures" in this book are DEADLY DULL.
Seriously....it's just one round of schooling after another, a couple of dull competitions, and she mostly seem in a rut. Even Black Boys colic is just a bit of a bother, rather than a potential tragedy, as she'd have treated it a couple of books back.
The real adventure in the story is Dinah's rescue of the three horses, and that gets about 5 paragraphs spread over many chapters. Really, I found myself thinking "you know, forget about Jill's dull and dreary existence, I'd rather hear the story of Dinah and her neglectful father and the rescued horses....and hiding out in the forest clearing"!
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vera
Pony Clubber
Posts: 247
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Post by vera on Mar 21, 2016 5:13:54 GMT 1
I always wondered if Ruby Ferguson was teaching her stepdaughters a moral lesson in the Jill books. I did not like Dinah; I thought she was self righteous. Also found her father quite unbelievable. I suffered from helicopter parents before it was a thing! There were many books written at the time about horses being smuggles to Europe for slaughter. I always wondered about this. Surely it would have been cheaper for people to by horses in Europe rather than smuggle them from Britain? Was it something that happened back then ? I seem to have done a lot of wondering! I did not get put off by Jill's character in this one; just thought she was being a typical teenager and quite a self centred one but with a strong conscience and a real desire to help others.
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Post by Claire on Mar 21, 2016 23:22:55 GMT 1
Yeah I think Susan and Darkhorse are right in saying it's not the best one in the series and a bit dull. If it were an episode in a long running TV drama you would call it a filler! I defo agree that Dinah's story was more interesting. I think I probably admired Dinah more than liked her, but at times in this book I did actively dislike Jill. Hmmm I'm not sure how realistic the absent minded father thing is, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen. It's certainly a scenario in a lot of books. I think back in the 1940s a single male parent probably wouldn't really know what to do with a daughter other than send them to a boarding school, which is of course what happens to Dinah. I did think it a bit odd at the end when Dinah is overjoyed at being packed off to the boarding school, she seems to have lost her horse fever and is getting mad about school stories (unless of course it was one of those boarding schools which have stables attached!) The transport of horses from the British Isles to Europe for meat unfortunately really happened and it wasn't just smuggling but a bona fide business for many. There's an excellent story called The Pony Express by Mairin Johnson which deals with the transport of horses from Ireland to the continent for meat and about the campaign to stop it. Funnily enough it also has a character like Dinah who decides to take a hand in rescuing horses rather than just moaning about how terrible it was but doing nothing. (If anyone is interested in reading The Pony Express there is a review of the book here )
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vera
Pony Clubber
Posts: 247
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Post by vera on Mar 22, 2016 2:21:01 GMT 1
Thank you for that information Claire. I would love to get hold of The Pony Express; it sounds fascinating.
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Post by Claire on Mar 22, 2016 20:03:51 GMT 1
Thank you for that information Claire. I would love to get hold of The Pony Express; it sounds fascinating. If you can't get hold of a copy let me know and I'll lend you mine.
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Post by trixiepony on Mar 24, 2016 10:06:23 GMT 1
I'm with the outhers in that it's not one of the better ones in the series, I thort all the show stuff was over dun, after all Jill didn't really have her heart in it, what with trying to feed Dinah, and feeling guilty for it. She's imbarest by her but also in aw of her for having the guts to stele the horses.
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Post by Claire on Mar 24, 2016 23:29:01 GMT 1
You've hit the nail on the head Trixie. Jill is very much a conformist and easily embarassed, cares too much about what other people think of her. I never really realised she had this trait before re-reading this book, always thought there was something off about her and I think thats it. Coming from a long line of eccentrics as I do, I'm a bit wary of people who want to be like everyone else! Poor old Jill, I thought someone would be defending her by now!
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Post by haffyfan on Apr 1, 2016 12:12:15 GMT 1
Haha, not me coming to her defense as i always thought she was the most beastly pot hunter going.
This was the first Jill book i ever read so maybe it's why i have this opinion of her as it is, as said, the first one it really strongly comes to light and she appears to have forgotten her own non horsey and beginner days. I sense this Jill onwards would thoroughly disapprove of anyone buying a pony who didn't know the first thing about caring for it, despite having been there!
Some very shrewd observations by all, i shall give it a reread with them in mind. On Trixie's point, i wonder if the Jill in A stable For Jill was able to confront Pedro's owner and generally act in the manner she did as she was in strange place where she was unknown, so not embarrassing herself in the same way association with Dinah at home would bring and being away from the potential aftermath/repercussions should she have confronted Mr Towtle in her home area in the same way.
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Post by foxglove on Apr 1, 2016 15:14:18 GMT 1
I haven't read the Jill books in years, but I do vividly remember the scene in which Jill visits Dinah and she's in their squalid kitchen scraping burnt bits off the cake. I recall finding that upsetting as a young reader, probably because most pony/adventure books feature large jolly families in shabby-but-cheerful surroundings, and there was something very dark about that insight into the miserable home life of a neglected and lonely child.
I remember the blurb on my paperback edition making out that it was a story about some awful, threatening baddie, when Dinah's main crime was to be pony-mad but pony-less, and scruffy. Horsey women can be horribly cliquey and looking back I think Ferguson was very accurate of her portrayal of Jill's response to someone not cool enough to be in her gang.
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Post by Claire on Apr 1, 2016 22:40:51 GMT 1
On Trixie's point, i wonder if the Jill in A stable For Jill was able to confront Pedro's owner and generally act in the manner she did as she was in strange place where she was unknown, so not embarrassing herself in the same way association with Dinah at home would bring and being away from the potential aftermath/repercussions should she have confronted Mr Towtle in her home area in the same way. I'm sure she wasn't as bothered by keeping up appearances then and she certainly had more gumption. I think I'll read Stable again and compare the old Jill with the one in Enjoys. Yeah I can see how if you read this one first Haffy you wouldn't think much of Jill. I'm still surprised though that most people have somewhat agreed with me that she's not the nicest character in this one. Foxglove - possibly when it was talking about the evil baddie on that blurb it meant the bloke who was sending off the horses for meat. Not that he appeared in the story much - only once as far as I can recall. Which paperback edition was it as I may have that one.
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Post by rallycairn on Apr 4, 2016 21:09:44 GMT 1
Partly through this reading of the book, but I have read it before. It is a pretty dull entry in the series, for sure.
I guess I don't see Ferguson as disliking Jill so much as continuing to make an example of her, just as she did in the first book. But Jill is no longer a beginner to horses and horsemanship, so now that she is at least an intermediate rider and horsekeeper, what sort of lessons does she need to learn? Well, not to get cocky, for one, and the first two chapters are big reminders of that -- first Jill misses the big show, then she and Ann both mess up at the smaller event by being too sure of themselves.
Agree that getting up a fete is a little dull for a main premise, and much, much more could have been made of the Dinah plotline. But I'm with Vera in not finding Dinah all that appealing -- it is amazing and admirable to me that a young girl would steal the horses, though perhaps a bit unlikely. But rooking the riding school wasn't the way to go about making her first contacts with horses -- if Dinah thought to clean and organize Jill's tack room in return for the riding kit Jill gave her (which was quite a nice thing to do as I do think Jill was attached to her first riding habit), then why didn't Dinah offer to do something at Mrs. Darcy's in exchange for a lesson? And breaking in Jill's tack room is still breaking in, even if her intentions were good.
But yes, Jill does not have as much gumption in this book as the Jill who not only rescued Pedro in A Stable for Jill, but also set up a credible riding school for the summer. That was quite a feat and more in line with what we expect from our horse-loving heroines.
At least, though now an early teen, right? Jill is not getting boy crazy -- and again I think she is at an age and experience level that was perhaps a bit of a challenge for Ferguson to know what to do with.
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Post by Claire on Apr 5, 2016 20:31:58 GMT 1
Excellent points Rally, yes I do think Ruby Ferguson was teaching a moral about not to get over complacent and over confidant. As for Dinah, I don't really know why the author made her 'steal' a ride when she could have done work at the stable in return for a ride. Perhaps it was to set some sort of antagonism up with her and Jill. I think if Jill and Dinah had got on better Dinah may have confided in her earlier over her plans to help the horses and Jill could have played a bigger role in the rescue. Funnily enough I really disliked Dinah when I read the book as a child and was on Jill's side. But reading as an adult I'm more on Dinah's side. Which could say something about conformity in children. I was complaining about Jill being overly bothered about what people are thinking about her, but that's from an adult perspective. As a child, particularly a teen, its far far more important to be accepted as 'normal' by your peers. So Ruby was probably right on the ball with Jill's character at that age.
Anyway we can think ourselves lucky as Rally said that boys and romance don't rear their ugly heads in the Jill series. I don't think romance appears in any shape or form in the series - not even amongst the adults. Even in the Jackie books there were a few romances and Jackie and Babs had a fight over a boy once! If anyone can think of anything like that happening in the Jill books let me know cos if it did I have forgotten it!
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Post by brumby on Apr 12, 2016 6:53:12 GMT 1
Sorry for the delay in responding to this discussion have had lots on. Big apologies to Jill!!!!! I am now here to support you, I have the rose coloured 'Jill' spectacles on! Agree that its not the greatest in the series, the plot was a bit thin. But how can you all be so mean to poor Jill? what did she actually do wrong? ?? Some little upstart comes along and steals a free riding lesson and Jill is annoyed by this as she should be, working in a position of trust for Mrs Darcy. Even though she criticised Dinah for having the wrong clothes she does refer back to the fact that she was once like that. Giving Dinah her old riding clothes! How is this not an act of kindness??? Did anybody else in the village go out of there way to help Dinah? Nope only Jill, of course she would have misgivings about being the one to help and what would people thing, she is a TEENAGER! At least she did something. For those that think she has a big head at the shows, Mrs Darcy is always praising her and telling her she could ride any of the horses and again she is a teenager! She let Dinah ride Blackboy (I certainly wouldn't let a beginner ride my horse (if I had one ) When she first refused Anne said she was mean, did Anne rush over there and give Dinah a ride on George NO, it was Jill who took pity and let her have a lovely ride. When Dinah stole the horse again Jill helped her by taking food to her. Agree that Dinah is not really a likeable character. I think Ruby Ferguson has done a great job of making Jill a realistic teenager. Jill will always be the best in my eyes, loved her when I read the books as a teenager and still love her ! GO Jill! AS for her being a pot hunter! Why would you enter a show if you didn't have some desire to win? ?
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Post by Claire on Apr 13, 2016 23:23:12 GMT 1
Aw I'm glad poor Jill has an advocate, I was beginning to feel a bit sorry for her. Good points Brumby. Yeah she is a typical teenager, like I said in one of my later posts I seemed to like her more when I was about the same age than I do now. I'm obviously turning into a real grumpy old fuddy duddy! No, Jill's not really that bad but she was more likeable in the first books I think. What's quite interesting is that even though a lot of us didn't like Jill much in this episode and we all agreed it wasn't one of the best in the series, it still rates between 3 and 4 horseshoes (good to very good) on the poll. Even tho I am not a huge fan of Jill as a character in some of the later stories I do rate them all as pretty good books. Hmm I just realised Tintin didn't get back to us with his view of the book. Come out and let us have the male perspective please Tintin
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Post by trixiepony on Apr 14, 2016 0:19:17 GMT 1
Good points, she is a young teen in this book so a lot of her funny little ways are from that. I'm sorry if I sounded like I was picking on Jill, she has always been a faverit of mien. She dus seem to feel freear to be wild when away from home.
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Post by tintin on Apr 14, 2016 17:11:15 GMT 1
Well I did n't find the book dull.
I do think people are being a bit hard on her, she does more good than bad. My first thoughts though, like many on here, were "it's her age". She is more scatter brained, more torn between different peoples viewpoints and less thoughtful. Which is a bit typical of early adolescence. The group of youngsters invited to the house to plan the show for charity are so diverse they would not bring out the best in anyone.
There is an interesting comment when, referring to her living in the woods, Jill's mentor says Dinah is like the SAS. I think that is more true than her fieldcraft - she is very single minded and a bit intense. You would not want to be on the wrong side of her. While at the moment she is on the side of the angels you would need to keep an eye on her
It does worry me though how Jill could go in the future - typical of her age - she is finely balanced between good and bad
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Post by Claire on Apr 15, 2016 2:07:24 GMT 1
Thanks for adding your views Tintin. Interesting comments as always. I've just thought it might be fun to have a poll to find our favourite Jill book/s. Be interesting to see if we are all in accord or all have different faves. Link to the poll below: Favourite Jill Books Poll
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Post by rallycairn on Apr 21, 2016 13:34:50 GMT 1
I need to revise my earlier opinions a bit -- I picked the book back up and got into it and finished it quickly. Starting right after Jill drank her mom's "company" fruit drink (not entirely her fault, I don't think -- Jill shouldn't have drunk it all, maybe, but it really should have been marked or set aside in some way by her mother, surely?) -- anyway, right after that incident I had no trouble staying with the book and quite enjoyed it.
I have to defend Jill a little more about Dinah, too. I think her attitude about Dinah was not so much about worrying what people would think in the sense of superficial social standing -- honestly in a children's book sort of way, I think the implication of the comments that Ms. Darcy's staff made, and Jill's mother, etc., was that Dinah was some kind of budding juvenile delinquent. Especially after she was believed to have stolen three horses. But really right from the beginning only Jill's mother (and Jill) seemed to want to help Dinah whereas others were more negatively judgmental. Nobody else seemed to be tut-tutting about how neglected she was or trying to help her, just wanting to act scandalized about her odd clothes and behavior.
Also I don't think it's that uncommon to want to help someone but feel mixed emotions about having your actions called attention to. I think Jill wants to be seen as more gruff or no-nonsense or matter-of-fact than she really is.
Other things I liked -- Some of Cecilia's ridiculousness was shown up a little, but at the same time her strengths were recognized, as well. Cecilia really is quite insulting to Jill, but Jill is learning to not get bothered by her cattiness and condescension and snarks right back at her a few times, and in ways that don't end with Jill getting in trouble with the adults. Jill doesn't always end up looking badly in contrast to Cecilia in this one, either -- Jill does well in her arena at the fete (the horses) and Cecilia does well with her crafts and table arrangements, and they can each appreciate the other, rather than compete. Cecillia also begins to recognize that she doesn't actually know it all, at least in regards to horses. I don't suddenly love her as a character -- she's mostly a brown nosing git imo -- but she's changing her ways a little. The Cecilia-Jill relationship had some nice growth in this book, and not too heavily done.
I liked that Jill basically did save Seraphine from Towtle. Though I hated that Seraphine was sold only to have Ann's sister decide later she wanted a pony, so her parents are going to look around for another one. Folks, you just sold one pony and now, oops, no, little diddykums wants one after all so we must buy another -- horses are living, breathing amazing creatures, not bicycles to buy and then sell after giving your children years of faithful service and whoopsie just get another one as the whim of the day persuades.
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Post by kunuma1 on Apr 22, 2016 15:22:25 GMT 1
Oh dear, bit late to the party here - only to be one of the ones on Dinah's side I'm afraid! I would have been in the woods with Dinah and the rest of the horses!I thought Jill was flippin useless, more worried about her showing career than the horses going for meat - but then, this is the girl who nearly put Rapide into an auction because she didn't like the way he looked at her!
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Post by Claire on Apr 22, 2016 18:33:12 GMT 1
Rally - good point about Jill and Celia's relationship improving. Yes I noticed that when I was reading it but forgot about it. I don't think Cecilia is too bad underneath. Yep maybe I have been a bit harsh on Jill but I still can't quite warm to her in this book like I did in the first ones. She does rescue Seraphine from Towtle but it's pure luck!
Anyhow glad we did this book as I was hoping there would be a divide between the Jill-haters and Jill-lovers and also something in between - and there was. Makes for a quite lively and interesting discussion.
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Post by brumby on Apr 25, 2016 22:38:03 GMT 1
Feeling better now as there seems to be a little more love for Jill than early posts suggested! I'm sure there are more secret Jill fans out there So love Ruby Ferguson as a writer she never fails to make me laugh and her books certainly keep you entertained the whole way through
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