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Post by Claire on Jun 17, 2013 11:12:14 GMT 1
Lol rosie, just imagining you coming on here to post while the OH waits impatiently in the car ;D ;D ;D
If it was 50 miles away she would have needed full livery - totally out of the question as they were so poor. No, the probability would have been tethering by the roadside or stuck in some ragwort infested field with barbed wire fencing! Have the keep-Perdita people ever lived in a big city? I did for all of my childhood (except summers on the farm) and believe me unless you had money it was almost impossible for people to keep horses. If you did you certainly couldn't have luxuries like a NZ rug. I couldn't even afford feed bowls I nicked my mum's pirex dishes! The only reason I had ponies was cos I got in with the local rich people who wanted someone to look after their horses and they let me have a couple on loan, I never actually even owned one, they were all on loan. Also if you did have one it was a 'hairy pony', nobody would have even considered an Anglo Arab. Anyway all this history is to illustrate that having to sell Perdita was the realistic ending, even if it doesn't conform to the ideal of keep your beloved pony at all costs. I lost my Domino cos they sold him to someone else when I was on holiday, even tho my grandad was going to buy him. In a book I would have scoured the countryside looking for him til I found him, in reality I just accepted the situation, albeit with heartbreak. Reality is not pleasant and I think this is why so many people don't like the ending. Cos they want something better than RL in their books.
If the story had a more fairy-tale ending the father would have realised how much P meant to Gill and would have written another detective story so she had money to keep her. That would have been quite good, giving up his dreams for a while to keep his child's alive. (Giving up his dreams to actually feed and clothe his children would be too far beyond him!)
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Post by rallycairn on Jun 17, 2013 14:32:01 GMT 1
I haven't re-read yet, but I just have to come on and say that no way, no how do I see selling Perdita at the end as selfish of Gill. Strong echo of all the points Claire made. Let's not forget the sad state Buffoon in Blind Beauty was in when he was field kept by the man who bought him for his daughter to event and "love." Those owners, per the author's own words, would have been astonished to be accused of neglect because Buffoon was out in a field with grass and running water -- but Buffoon was a thoroughbred and near to starvation on that type of diet. Re: this book -- I really don't think, with all the children in the family/mouths to feed, that Gill's family could afford ANY horse or pony. But for the sake of argument, let's say they could find some kind of cheap rough field board (is livery the right British term, even for just being kept in a field?), with no stall and no grain feedings. Perdita is not a stocky air fern native-pony type (although that is my fave! but that is not what she is) -- she is a "blood" pony and it is unlikely she could thrive, possibly not even survive, without supplemental grain/textured feed, and lots of it. And lots of rugging both winter (cold) and summer (for the flies and so forth). Not a hardy type, in other words. Like Buffy, she would be miserable and in poor health, or worse, without a much more intensive type of care. No way could Gill's family have afforded Perdita's board -- or quite possibly any pony in any boarding/livery situation. I'm not saying the Gill character is without flaw, but I have to strongly say I think it broke her heart to give up Perdita, but it was because she cared about her, her literal life and well being, that she knew she couldn't keep her. And knowing that she was going to be well cared for in every way, both physically and with a doting owner -- to put it more spiritually, knowing that Perdita was going to be alive and fully her own healthy, vibrant self gracing the world with her presence, even if it was without Gill -- is what made Gill able to give her up. Now, IIRC the Americans that bought here were Texans ( ), and Perdita may have a bit of a shock moving from usually coolish and damp England to dry and hot Texas, but the new owners had the $$$ to give her the utmost care to ease the transition to a different climate. I am not at all saying that I can't see why someone might not like the book, or the characters, but I don't find it plausible that Gill could be called selfish for selling Perdita to people who can actually afford to keep her not just alive and healthy, but allow her to thrive and continue to do what she does best.
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Post by Claire on Jun 17, 2013 14:38:00 GMT 1
Hurrah someone else on 'my side' at last ;D Thanks Rally, you made a much more concise argument than all my wittering!
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Post by susanb on Jun 17, 2013 16:00:19 GMT 1
If you think of the relationship Gill and Perdita had as working partners, rather than "owner" and pet, I think it’s more both a more accurate view and easier to understand the outcome.
People who have a working partner relationship with animals, like soldiers and police with dogs, are more likely to view their partner as a fully grown adult member of the team, with needs and desires that are entirely their own, but who happens to be another species.
People who have pets think of them as young members of their families, and the relationship is totally different. One understands that a partner may have needs and wants that aren’t met in a current working relationship, but it’s far more difficult to accept giving up a relative, even if you haven’t the means to give them a decent life.
In an odd way, the year Perdita spent with her new owners was probably a whole lot more pleasant than the one Gill spent with her family before heading off to the commune!
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Post by kunuma on Jun 17, 2013 18:07:09 GMT 1
Ha Ha Round Three! Ding!
;D You'd be surprised how quickly a 'show' pony turns back into a 'hairy' pony when you turn it out!! The British riding pony cross of TB/Arab/Native, throws very tough ponies! You spend more time trying to keep their weight down than feeding them up! Mine looks like a show pony in the summer, and the hairiest of natives in the winter! (her dad is Oakley Bubbling Fun)
BUT it's not the selling part that upsets me, I think Perdita was better off and more appreciated in her new home, yes, she could have loaned her out for a year and taken her up to Scotland with her, (probably room to graze her with Shantih ;D )yes, I find it hard to take seriously just how broke you can be when you just earned enough to buy, and then have just sold, a mansion and land - it was just that paragraph that I posted that ruined it for me, seeming to belittle the time that she had spent riding and showing Perdita, as no longer important or something that mattered to her, now she had a boyfriend!
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Post by haffyfan on Jun 17, 2013 20:05:20 GMT 1
Not got round to re-reading this yet as i don't actually like it either. As an adult i can appreciate it's brilliance and depth compared to most titles of this genre and fully understand the high acclaim it receives...but actually like it...no sirree! It's an uncomfortable read from start to finish, hence my reluctance to re-read.
I'm actually just wading in to defend Kunuma and 'hot bloods' living out. As some of you are aware i have ponies from both end of the spectrum, a haflinger, a breed developed to live in alpine pastures and a weedy 3/4 bred (the other bit being ID so a bit hardier however if you've seen him you'd be hard pressed to spot it!). Both live out 24/7 in all weathers (it was minus 18 regular winter 2010 here, i don't have stables even if my Tb would stable!) , their field is about half a mile from the woods and next to open farmland, believe me it's bleak and cold . Admittedly i do rug them but as kunuma says above in summer murph resembles a little Tb and in winter he takes on an alter ego of a new forest pony x woolly mammoth - they adapt! Arabs are remarkably tough, after all it's freezing in the desert when the sun goes down. As for living on fresh air...both mine do and again arabs are very god doers too generally. Mine have a forage only diet, ad lib hay/haylage if possible (often rationed as they are both good doers (ie fatties) and no cereals...just a little hifi lite (alfalfa and oat straw mix) and a little alfa beet (unmolassed s.beet and alfalfa mix) to dampen it. so yep i'm joining kunuma in the Perdita could have lived out happily gang.
I can't remember the producer now but one of the hacks of the years (at hoys) in late eighties/early nineties was produced straight out of field, they had no stables either. It was well rugged and they didn't even have a school, all schooling took place out hacking! H 7H did an article about it after it had won because it was so different...or is it...at my old yard in s.yorks another livery bred and showed 12.2 showponies, mostly youngstock but produced some through under saddle...he had 3/4 stables allocated to him but had usually at least 8 ponies at any one time, they lived out all winter too( sore point as no one else was allowed to do this!)
Back to the book, what i do remember is not caring for Gill's attitude, she was only interested in Perdiat ultimately because she was a winning machine, a scruffy nag would not have appealed to her at all so in that sense the ending was actually fairly fitting. Just shocking as most pony books have the ponyless child end up happily ever after with the pony of their dreams...like Flicka! This was the reverse almost, Gill had no real blood, sweat and tears and then seemingly walked away at the end from what i remember
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Post by haffyfan on Jun 17, 2013 20:08:20 GMT 1
Oh yes i was going to say the ponies name was cleverly chosen wasn't it...i'm sure it means the lost one??
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Post by Claire on Jun 18, 2013 2:04:43 GMT 1
Well I bow to experience never having had anything but a 'hairy' pony and will concede that she could have kept Perdita out, but its still doesnt alter the fact she had nowhere to keep her and no money. And one last comment on the situation - the author surely did not want to create a heroine who was a pot-hunter and uncaring! Most authors love their main characters and identify with them. In the light of this it seems obvious to me that Gill didn't give up P for the reasons the anti-Gill brigade have put forward. Maybe the author didnt do her job well enough in making Gill's motives believable but people are definitely reading something into the book which was not intended to be there. Haffy you seem to have had a change of heart re. the book, judging from your comment on the initial review of the book a few years back: ponybooks.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=reviews&action=display&thread=113
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tamzin
Pony Clubber
Posts: 110
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Post by tamzin on Jun 18, 2013 10:01:50 GMT 1
I'll try to be brief. Here are some things I don’t like about this book. Right from the first page I found the whole tone of the book oppressive. We can guess that Gill will lose Perdita (”about to lose her” suggests that she was in danger of this but it might not have happened) but it isn’t just that, I felt depressed from beginning to end. The hand of fate hovers over the book and what will be, will be. Gill reaches her destiny. When she is 12 she is “terrified”” in case she dies and does not ride in the Horse of the Year Show at Wembley, “I had known that some day I would find the pony that was waiting for me somewhere.” When the family moves to Hallows Noon, “There was no doubt in my mind. Somewhere around Hallows Noon I would find my pony.” Gill doesn’t have a hope, or a dream of owning “a pony” or a hope, or a dream of being a successful rider; she has the ability to know that there is one specific pony waiting for her, it will be around Hallows Noon and she knows that she will ride at the Horse of the Year Show at Wembley (“I told Mummy that some day I would ride in the Horse of the Year Show, that nothing would stop me”) and nothing does stop her.
This book was first published in 1973. A 12 year old girl has her first proper riding lessons on a previously unknown pony and goes on (albeit older by then) to overcome a last minute problem of not having the money to hire a horse box to take 1st prize at her first time at the Horse of the Year Show; what a great story for the media! Surely it would be in the news, local and national newspaper reporters would want to talk to Gill, or members of her family and the TV reporters would want to interview her. None of this happens. Instead Gill is allowed to fade into obscurity, not just national obscurity, but local obscurity, so much so that it’s likely Mrs Ramsey could pass off the silver cup as being won by Perdita and not mention who rode her so that people will be fooled into thinking it was Sue.
The family who want to buy Perdita at the Show buy her. There are endless possibilities here. Surely many would want to buy her and ride her professionally, a candidate for the next Olympics? What about future job offers for Gill? What about sponsorship of Gill and Perdita? None of this happens, Gill doesn't have to consider all these options and it doesn’t matter because the important thing is that Gill has reached her destiny – she rode on her special pony in the Horse of the Year Show and she has discovered the truth about herself and life and is going off to a commune. Gill’s involvement in the equestrian world is now over.
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Post by Claire on Jun 18, 2013 13:10:02 GMT 1
As I said in an earlier post I quite liked the oppressive atmosphere, I think Leitch built up the sense of impending disaster very well. I think that when she kept saying she knew such and such was going to happen it was with hindsight. At the time she just hoped, afterwards as is human nature, she tried to make it out to be fate, when really it was just luck. One thing that annoyed me was the old cliche of the girl who has hardly ridden being more knowledgeable than the characters who have their own ponies/rode regularly. How come she knew how to ride Tessy better than her owner, and could pick out the faults in the riding school ponies, while all the other girls didnt have a clue? I do find characters who have some sort of 'natural ability' with horses a bit irritating and cliched. Probably cos I havent got it lol. One day I'm going to write a book about someone who is the opposite!
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Post by fizz on Jun 18, 2013 13:46:18 GMT 1
This is the first time I have read this book. I would have been moving away from pony books by the time it was published, hence me only being aware of it from this board. It is very different as a pony book, especially (I'm going to disagree with some here) it is so believable. I am in the blown away category.
Gill is complex, gifted as a rider, a rare natural that Mr Ramsey sees when she first mounts the pony. She is also real in her complexities. Yes she is snobbish about people & ponies. She is possessive about Perdita, but in a shallow sense & with realism. She is aware that she will be unable to look after the pony well. I actually think that she knew the pony would go to the USA as soon as she met the people at HOYS, the talk was all panic & a bit of bluff, deep down she knew she was just an un-salaried rider & the pony would go. She takes the money, she could have bought another pony but chooses not to do so. I think this is realistic because past teens how many people still ride or have a pony. I haven't & a good many of the people I grew up with, who were horse mad, don't. I was completely crazy about horses, but haven't been on one since I was 21. This is more like the real world. It is interesting that the author creates a parallel with Fran going off to success in the pop world, another "rare" dream & the brother getting an Oxbridge scholarship, where gill has to face the realism of giving up the dream. Maybe she has achieved it, been there, done moved on.
The idea (she might go to a commune) isn't so odd given the family & the influences from her parents. Her parents
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Post by kunuma on Jun 18, 2013 19:34:24 GMT 1
I think Tamzin has put her finger on it for me - had Gill been the usual pony mad girl who just wanted fate to find her a pony, and when it appeared it just happened to be a top class show pony, I would have been OK with it, (interesting point too Tamzin that she appears to not want another pony, or anything further to do with ponies) but instead her dream was not a pony, but to ride at Wembley, the pony being a convenient means to an end. Now before Claire throws me off the board , (and tbh I have been a bit of a devil's advocate as I'm a total PL fan) I'm really enjoying this discussion but feel we are ignoring a major character, after all none of it would have happened if it hadn't been for Perdita's owner, and his foresight in breeding her and looking for a jockey - what do we feel about him??
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Post by Claire on Jun 18, 2013 20:47:50 GMT 1
Actually its a novelty for me and kunuma to be disagreeing as we normally agree about everything! I can understand Gill not wanting another pony after Perdita/not having anything to do with ponies as thats how I felt when I lost Domino. In fact you probably won't like me when I said I swapped ponies for boys when I was about 16 (didnt go and live on a commune tho lol) I think its a bit like when you lose the love of your life anything else seems second best. When you are young you think like that, when you are older you just take it on the chin and get on with things. But Gill was a teenager and everything then seems do or die! Mr Ramsay - I would have liked his character developed a bit more. You don't learn a huge amount about him although next to the others in his family he is very likeable. In a way he is the eternal instructor figure like Martin Lowe or Major Holbrooke altho they are developed more. I think its interesting that he is disfigured (do we learn how I can't recall). I think this is deliberately done by PL so that Gill can learn to look beyond the surface and realise she can appreciate and love something that isn't beautiful. By the end of the book she is trying to get Perdita to Wembley not because she wants to win for herself but for Mr. R. So through him she has also learned to be less selfish. Mr R is also something of a father figure to Gill as her own is so dreadful. Ideally I would have liked him to have recovered enough to have given the 'pep talk' about having to give Perdita up rather than her father, as that bit just doesn't ring true for me. The most selfish man on the planet entreating his daughter to be less selfish and controlling!
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Post by fizz on Jun 18, 2013 20:50:13 GMT 1
Sorry I knocked the computer then I forgot to continue. Her parents are free spirits & it seems that some of the children are likewise; the Father is in some ways like mine. Bad with money, irresponsible about things, selfish....but at the end of things caring, with some good advice. Their Mother takes a back seat in the book & doesn't appear to support them. I thought the character of Mr Ramsey was interesting, but not enough was revealed, perhaps this is intentional, so that we can all have our own ideas about his disfigurement. I would have liked more about that other dysfunctional family. Yes, the Ramsey children would feel angered about "another rider" being brought in, I felt this could have been fleshed out more.
Lietch writes better than in any other of her books, there is more passion in the text, which consists of some fine descriptive prose. the seasons are well described, there is a lot of atmosphere of place & I felt "I was there" on a number of occasions. Loved the description of the lake & Gill's first glimpse of Mr Ramsey.
I am sure a lot of this book would have drifted over me as a child though & I am glad I read it as an adult.
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Post by Claire on Jun 18, 2013 20:59:53 GMT 1
Lietch writes better than in any other of her books, there is more passion in the text, which consists of some fine descriptive prose. the seasons are well described, there is a lot of atmosphere of place & I felt "I was there" on a number of occasions. Loved the description of the lake & Gill's first glimpse of Mr Ramsey. Totally agree. I feel that this was Leitch's magnum opus and I think she put more of herself and her own views into this book than any other (except perhaps some of the Jinny books). It was very powerful writing. Fizz you are the only one with a good word for Gill's father!
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tamzin
Pony Clubber
Posts: 110
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Post by tamzin on Jun 18, 2013 21:57:44 GMT 1
I would say that anyone who doesn't like Jinny will like Gill in this book, as she is pretty much the antithesis of Jinny. Just to completely buck the trend, though I am an ardent PL fan, and think this is a good book, the ending makes it my least favourite of all her books! Won't say any more until everyone has read it! I've just been glancing back at some of the earlier posts and saw this. LOL I don't like the Jinny books either Over the last few weeks I've read To Save a Pony, Cross Country Pony and Jump to the Top and I quite enjoyed these. I'm plannning to leave Afraid to Ride for the Summer Reading Challenge.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2013 18:18:53 GMT 1
I think this has been a great discussion I'm glad I read it and joined in, even if I didn't like it much!
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Post by Claire on Jun 21, 2013 20:35:12 GMT 1
Yes its been a good discussion. I've enjoyed it too. I thought the ending would provoke a lot of argument and I was right!
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Post by darkhorse on Jun 24, 2013 21:58:44 GMT 1
Late to the party as usual! I don't have much to add becuase it's all been said. I really like this book. I don't agree with kunuma that Gill and Jinny are unlike, I agree with whoever said they are alike, not exactly but they both have a different outlook on life than everyone around them and they don't seem to fit in. They both get on better with horses than people. The scene where she goes to the riding school is very similar to the riding school where Jinny finds Easter and her reaction to the ponies there is the same. Gill's new boyfriend sounds a bit like Ken! ;D I didn't like the ending as a child but now I do quite like it. If Gill had gone off into the sunset with Perdita it would have been like a thousand other pony books but the ending sets it apart and makes you think.
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Post by foxglove on Jun 28, 2013 13:58:00 GMT 1
I read it as an adult, and wish fervently I'd come across it (I loved the Jinny books but never found any other of Leitch's in my local library or bookshops) as a young reader. I class it (along with Fly-By-Night) as the best stand alone pony books I've read.
I will start with the ending as that seems to colour so many readers' response. I dislike the very last bit (hippy commune nonsense) as that seemed uncharacteristically clumsy compared to the lyrical flow of the preceding narrative, but I thought the selling of Perdita was entirely apt. The whole time at Hallows Noon was like a daydream (buying back idyllic childhood home, beautiful show pony waiting next door, free riding instruction, rags to riches HOYS winning etc); a fantasy interlude bookended by the unromantic reality of town life. All the arguing about the logistics of keeping a pony in a city with no money are besides the point. If you love someone you do what's best for them, not you. Undoubtedly Perdita was offered a better future in the US than the uncertainty of Gill's chaotic family life. Selling her was a selfless act IMO.
The father was an extremely interersting character, albeit infuriating. I don't think he was intentionally selfish and probably loved his children intensely, but was one of those arty types that are irredeemably impractical and genuinely incapable of common sense. I do wonder if Leitch was basing him on someone she met during her 60s hippy days. Being of a dull, prosaic mind myself, I have a sneaky admiration for those who can be spontaneous and creative and aloofly indifferent to domestic worries involving hygiene and punctuality.
It reads as a very personal, sincere book that meant a lot to the writer.
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Post by Claire on Jun 28, 2013 15:32:15 GMT 1
Thanks for your input foxglove. I really like your suggestion that the time at Hallows Noon was like a fantasy interlude. I didn't pick up on that when reading but I do totally agree. I think the hippy commune bit was a bit of propaganda stuck in by Leitch who does have alternative views regarding society. Its similar to some of the stuff Ken comes out with in the Jinny books. (although a bit less clumsy in that case)
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Post by rallycairn on Jun 28, 2013 16:25:59 GMT 1
GREAT POST, foxglove. I like your point about the sincerity of the book. It never occurred to me that Gill was being anything but selfless in selling Perdita.
Also, some of her narration that seems to have been off-putting for others I always thought was more than a little wry -- such as her opening statements about thinking she'd just "die" if she didn't get to ride in the HOYS. I think she was looking back on that attitude from a much later perspective of having learned to let go -- and shaking her head a at her own [prior] desperation. Also just a bit of normal "older, wiser, no longer the anguished adolescent."
"I'll just DIE if I [have to do, or don't get to do or get to have ...]" was a phrase I used as a child and teen, and I've seen it in other young adult books, too -- so partly just Gill's turns of phrase, as well.
Agree about the commune stuff, but here again I do think Leitch is sincere. I think she wanted to inject a little ray of hope in an otherwise pretty glum ending (for Gill, not for Perdita), and of course drive home her point about approaching life with that philosophy that the whole book basically moves toward. (What we've talked about upthread, about being happy just that things BE and exist in the world, and that animals are complete unto themselves, the interconnectedness of things, etc.)
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Post by Claire on Jun 28, 2013 17:40:09 GMT 1
All the arguing about the logistics of keeping a pony in a city with no money are besides the point. Lol we did get a bit bogged down with that ;D
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Post by tintin on Jul 1, 2013 19:40:19 GMT 1
I did n't like the book and gave it 3 "fair" because of the very good descriptive writing which skilfully evoked a time and a place, unfortunately it was a time and a place I did n't much care for which tempted me to an emotional and unfair 2. This book does just so conjure up the world of the late sixties early seventies arty and alternative.
I did n't like the family, I did n't like the ambience and I did n't care for the heroine who I found a bit pretentious. I did n't like her bad attitude to less good riders and longed for someone to give her the "responsibilities of the gifted/natural leader" lecture.
The book was also very good on what a slum is like.
I liked the old boy best. The book improved greatly once the serious riding began. He reminded me of the old Governor of Strangeways who had been badly burnt in the war.
The "naturally gifted" bit did annoy a little, but it was a bit different here as it touched on a problem that can hit the naturally gifted. Her brain has not caught up with her body. Yes she is really good, but she does not have the experience or the knowledge a less naturally gifted rider would pick up over a longer apprenticeship.
The father is the most annoying character and really takes the cake when he lectures her about "growing up", although he can be forgiven a lot for having a go at the schoolie.
Having ridden a Wembley Champion I think she would have been besieged by showing people - even more having done so as an unknown rider on an unknown horse. I am sure something could have been worked out eg working at a yard and riding Perdita, but someone else owning her with some kind of "first refusal" Crichel Down Rules type buy back option.
Again she is just too inexperienced and immature to know how to cut a deal. The death of the old man is so sad on a lot of levels and this is one of them - he would have cut out a career for her.
I think this brassed me off with the book as well ie someone turning their back on a promising show career (I can think of one lady of a certain age who would probably have been so furious with jealous rage she might have tried to drown her in the horse trough)
I think the horse is better off. They seem caring people with the letters etc. although USA is a bit far - perhaps the author really wanted a dramatic break.
Susan - I think your comments were spot on. He is your long faced pal a member of the unit or work force who happens to be a horse. He can do stuff you can't (pull heavy weights, go long distance, go at high speeds) you can do stuff he can't (put his kit on him, make his dinner, keep him healthy). You make up for the stuff you each can't do.
He can't plan for his future - life for him is always "now"
I think again this is inexperience on the part of the heroine. She knows how to feel love, but not always how to show it.
Not a feel good book.
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Post by foxglove on Jul 4, 2013 11:00:58 GMT 1
Interesting thoughts Tintin.
The fact that she didn't follow the obvious route to a glitteringly successful career is one of the reasons why I like it I think. In life many people turn down options that once seemed tempting. People, especially teenagers, change their minds. An awful lot of girls grow out of ponies and riding- that doesn't make them bad people. Much better for the pony to go to a loving home than be neglected in a lonely field.
One of the scenes that stuck in my mind was how she badgered people for cash for transport, in a way that must have been really annoying for everyone and pretty degrading for her to have to beg. That's the kind of relentless intensity you need for a competitive sports career, and I guess she eventually realised that it wasn't for her.
Many pony books have a single aim, usually competition based, at which the protagnist is focussed; I must beat x at the gymkhana, win this class, show the world my rags-to-riches pony is The Best. A Dream Of Fair Horses if pretty unique in showing the aftermath of such a victory; yes it was nice, but actually there are other things in life that are now more important. And it's ok to say Thank you and Goodbye to the show world.
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