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Post by Claire on Jan 20, 2011 21:57:42 GMT 1
Further to susans and my posts on the ranching stories thread, thought I would start a discussion about how some pony books have been spoilt/altered/etc by the not so tender ministrations of editors or publishers. One of my personal bugbears is the Americanization of books which have been written by non-American authors and set in non-American countries, resulting in an unhappy mating of cultures as American phrases and currency are shoe-horned into the stories (Yes it has been known for things to be bought in dollars in a book which is obviously set in the UK!). This is obviously an editorial decision as no author would write that way. This seems to be mainly a modern phenomenon, and is one of the main faults of some of the Stabenfeldt books. Revisions/updating is another irritation which works sometimes but usually not. Do folks think that books need to be updated to include modern references, modern currency equivalent, etc, or does this mean the atmosphere of the original story is lost? A well-known example of the heavy editorial hand is that of the Moors series by JPT when the original characters from the first few books were phased out as they were felt to be growing too old for the kids reading to identify with. As a result we had a new lot of chracters introduced which you never seemed to identify with as well as the original children (not to mention you still wanted to know what was happening with the old characters). I think this made the last few books inferior to the first ones, and perhaps they were less popular so resulting in a lack of reprint and in the rare status of those titles now. I dont know why editors/publishers have such a low opinion of their young readers. They seem to think they cant cope with characters of different sexes, ages, cultures or anything slightly unsettling. A very patronising attitude IMHO! Sorry for the long post. Would be interested to hear other peeps opinions on the matter and any other examples of stories spoilt by editorial input.
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Post by susanb on Jan 21, 2011 5:09:08 GMT 1
Easily one of my biggest pet peeves!
I picked up a copy of The Falcon's Malteaser by Anthony Horowitz out of my library's booksale a couple of years ago, thinking it might be something a friend's daughters would like. I try to make a point of not giving books I haven't read myself (after all, actually giving a book is the ultimate recommendation!), so I read it. And back to the library for the next booksale it went. It had been so Americanized that it was literally unreadable.
I'm not on the right side of the pond to comment on the British editions of American books, but I know one British reader on another forum complained that Lilly's Plastic Purple Purse by Kevin Hanks had had it's monetary contents changed from dollars to pounds, so it does seem to go both ways.
Totally agree that modern publishers underestimate and short change their young readers...two of my favorite British books from childhood, National Velvet by Enid Bagnold and Tall and Proud by Vian Smith managed to be very popular here without a word being changed (well, Tall and Proud got a new title, but that's all!). My original copy of National Velvet had a short (two or three page) glossary in the back that gave short definitions/translations of unfamiliar British terms and an explanation of the money and that was plenty to get on with!
On updating references and currency etc, I find it very disorienting....unless a writer is doing a modern ADAPTATION, in which everything is brought up to the current date, inserting modern bits into a vintage setting is completely nuts.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2011 13:17:22 GMT 1
TOTALLY agree with you there Susan. Another classic and very irritating change was in the Jill books. I expect this has all been said before but it really does bug me that Black Boy turns into a piebald and Jill calls him Patchy. But on the other hand, in Follyfoot one of the horses is called N *gger and yet that hasn't been changed and I'd have thought that was worse!
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Post by Claire on Jan 21, 2011 13:19:29 GMT 1
One of the worst culprits of the 'Americanization' of British set books is Tears for a Tall Horse by Ann Wigley, which is a shame cos its a good story by a pretty good writer. The book is obviously set in England. It's setting is a Jacobean house near Oxford and there is a lot of detail about the history of the house, King Charles 1st, etc, in fact this is important to the story. There are also quite a few other English references and expressions but at the same time it has been blatantly changed for the American market. The mother is called Mom, which is never used here, the grey horse is spelt gray and worst of all is that the RSPCA has been changed to the ASPCA! Perhaps if the book had been set in a more ambiguous setting and all the English expressions and words had been changed to their US equivalent it wouldnt have been so bad, but the ridiculous mixture of the two is so jarring and will probably confuse readers more than anything else.
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Post by foxglove on Jan 21, 2011 15:12:18 GMT 1
I had no idea that Black Boy was anything other than a piebald before I found this forum! Is he just plain black in the original edition then? What on earth was the reason for changing? I've always found pre-decimalisation UK currency massively confusing (and a lot of Imperial measurements). Now I think about it, I had a motley collection of Famous Five books- some of which were the newer 80s editions with reference to fifty pence pieces, and some were older with mysterious shillings, sixpences and half crowns. Racehorses are still sold in guineas at auction; I think that and the pint must be the only Imperial measures still in legal use! A new edition of Huck Finn/Tom Sawyer has just been released, controversially replacing the N word with "slave" (which aren't exactly directly interchangeable anyway). If an Eng Lit teacher can't explain about historical context and language evolution then they probably are in the wrong job.
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Post by garej on Jan 21, 2011 19:56:31 GMT 1
The thing that always confuses me (and still does) is that when I was a kid and got given the Jill books was the inconsistency of the currency, particularly where Rapide pricing was concerned. Some books say he cost £25 whereas some books says he cost £1000. Obviously an attempt by Knight to update the books, but been as all the books I have were brought brand new in the early 1990s, you would think that they would all say the same. But they dont.
An really bad example is the Criterion edition of The Boy and The Donkey. It's Americanised. There is a short section which explains in the beginning how much dollars is to a shilling, or how to convert British (imperial) measures to USA ones, which you would expect. Also you would expect American spellings too.
However it goes further than this. Every single sentence has been changed. No two sentences are the same if you compare this with an British edition. I really cant see Diana writing this: it's completely different style and reads nothing like any of her books. The text is awkward and some of the sentences are awful. The plot jerks along rather than flows nicely. It's almost practically unreadable.
If you were the average American kiddie reading this as your first DPT book, it would be enough to put you off her for life! Fortunately the Criterion version is harder to find in the first place when compared to the Collins first edition and the paperback reprint entitled The Donkey Race. Apart from the change in title, I cant find any difference between the first edition of The Boy and the Donkey and the pb The Donkey Race.
foxglove: mile is an imperial measure we use, and stones and pounds. Despite being taught everything metric, I cant understand (human) weight in kilos, or distances in kilometres. However if you told me how much someone weighs in stones, or how far something is in miles, I can understand.
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Post by garej on Jan 21, 2011 20:08:42 GMT 1
Oh and speaking of recent books, I have some of Stacy Gregg's Pony Club Secrets series. They are quite decent enough, but the first one, Mystic and the Midnight Ride, has a mention of a pony show class called The Paced and Mannered event. Apart from this mystery event, the book could be set anywhere: in the USA, the UK, wherever. But to the average 10 year old (which is this book is firmly aimed at) reading it in the UK, would be quite confused (and so am I, because I have no idea what this particular class entails) as we dont have The Paced and Mannered event.
I wish either whoever was responsible would either a) make it clear where the book was set - so for example it was set in America, then be upfront or b) change it so we either have the equivalent class in the UK or pick an internationally known class which would be the same regardless of whatever country you are in.
I do have an American version of Darkling which I have yet to read, but I am hoping that beyond American spellings that they have not ruined a K M Peyton work.
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Post by Claire on Jan 21, 2011 20:57:42 GMT 1
Garej, that is very interesting about the Criterion edition of the Boy and the Donkey, sounds like a prime example of the problem.
The Stacy Gregg books have puzzled a lot of people in the same way. Stacy Gregg is a New Zealand writer so I assume the books are set in NZ which would explain why they seem a little odd to us who are used to mainly British or American set stories. Tho it is not impossible they have been tampered with too!
Another example is in Six Ponies where a big chunk is cut out of the first edition where Major Holbrooke dresses down the awful Richard. It is actually quite a bleak and hard-hitting piece and it doesnt appear at all in later editions. I have a feeling this was a) because it was afterwards considered too dark for a children's book and too hard-hitting for the dear little kiddies reading it and b) because it didn't really sit well with the much more lighter and humourous tone of the other books in the series. Some of the bits chopped out were not really missed but this was an important part of the story and it was a shame it didnt appear in the later editions.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2011 21:22:28 GMT 1
Yes he was a black pony. Jill called him Blackie because he was black, like she would probably call a brown pony brownie but I suppose the PC brigade didn't like the black reference
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2011 21:24:00 GMT 1
I'm glad I read the origional version, I agree Claire that to take that part out is just ridiculous!
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Post by garej on Jan 21, 2011 22:10:57 GMT 1
The Stacy Gregg books have puzzled a lot of people in the same way. Stacy Gregg is a New Zealand writer so I assume the books are set in NZ which would explain why they seem a little odd to us who are used to mainly British or American set stories. Tho it is not impossible they have been tampered with too! Another thing is that they talk about putting "covers" on horses, which is a little confusing. What they mean about covers is actually New Zealand rugs, which are called covers in their country of origin. The good thing is that in later books, Stacy Gregg says something about the ILPH being changed to World Horse Welfare, so she changes the reference to reflect that fact. I know they are only minor, but still to the average 10 year old who didnt know about it, it is still confusing. But on the other hand, they are so easy to rectify for an UK publishing, that you do wonder why on earth dont they bother? I guess it's all to do with money rather than having pride in their work.......
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Post by Claire on Jan 21, 2011 22:36:29 GMT 1
If only the publishers would stick to the job of selling and marketing the books and leave the actual writing to the experts!
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Post by garej on Jan 22, 2011 0:12:11 GMT 1
Claire (and anyone else who is interested), I have copied out the first bit from the first chapter of The Boy and the Donkey/The Donkey Race. This bit isnt too bad but if anyone has read it then you know it starts getting sad in the end, so the fact that reads differently changes the whole emotion of the story and spoils it.
Oh if anyone is wanting to read, I suggest either the Collins (first edition) or the Armada pb (entitled: The Donkey Race) depending on your pockets for the true taste of the story.
Collins (including first edition and pb reprint)
THE MAN and the donkey were at the corner again, the four-wheeled cart heavily laden with iron, rags and countless newspapers, when Duggie walked home from school between the terraces of high houses with peeling porticos and heavy paintless doors.
The donkey was small and grey with a white muzzle and a white covering to his stomach which would have looked like a shirt front had he stood up on his sturdy hind legs and walked like a man. He waited patiently, a humble expression in his brown eyes, while his master struggled to move the junk farther forward in his cart, and the first drips of rain came with the dusk and splattered on the empty road.
Duggie knew the old man was known as Old Jock and Duggie’s mother had said that he was a dishonest beggar best left alone. But the boy couldn’t walk past and leave the bent figure struggling on his own. Besides, it seemed hard luck on the donkey, who must be getting hungry for his tea.
So Duggie stopped and asked whether he could lend a hand. And the old man straightened his back and said it wasn’t often young people put themselves out these days. He stared at the boy with eyes which were an honest blue. There was nothing cunning about his face, so that Duggie doubted his mother’s assertation.
Criterion (American)
The man and his donkey were at the corner again when Duggie walked home from school. The four-wheeled card was heavily laden with iron, rags, and countless newspapers. The donkey was small and gray, with a white nuzzle and a white covering which would have looked like a shirt front had he stood up on his hind legs and walked like a man. He waited patiently, a humble expression in his brown eyes, while his master struggled to move the junk farther forward in the cart as the first drips of rain spattered on the empty road.
Duggie knew the old man was called Old Jock. Duggie’s mother had said he was probably a dishonest beggar and best left alone. But the boy couldn’t walk past and leave the bent figure struggling by himself. Besides, it seemed hard on the donkey, who must be getting hungry for his supper.
So Duggie stopped and asked whether he could lend a hand. And the old man straightened his back and said it wasn’t often young people put themselves out these days. He stared at the boy with eyes which were an honest blue. There was nothing sly about his face, so that Duggie doubted his mother’s statement.
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Post by Claire on Jan 22, 2011 11:50:56 GMT 1
Thanks for that garej. Yes the original is certainly more lyrical and flowing than the 2nd. You can understand to some extent them changing the bit about terraced houses and tea as these are English expressions but why did they change assertation to statement??? Seems like they were 'dumbing it down' as well as Americanising it. But surely thats how kids learn when they come across words in stories they dont know they ask someone or look in a dictionary. Otherwise we'd still all be reading 'Janet and John' style books with single syllable words!
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vera
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Post by vera on Jan 22, 2011 11:57:32 GMT 1
The Mary Grant Bruce books were updated but they didn't sell. Trying to change the historical context is a mistake IMHO. Then they brought out the original books, with an explanation that when these books were written, that was the way people behaved and what a good thing we had moved on from those days, which I also found offensive. Mary Grant Bruce wrote a series called "B for Billabong" and in my long ago childhood they were required reading. I always thought i had an early copy of Six Ponies but it does not including the reaming of Richard. I always thought it was strange that John was told off but Richard's neglect and cruelty to the pony is not really commented on. On the editing front and looking at making books acceptable for their countries, who is confused by Australianisms in "The Silver Brumby" ? It took me years to find out what a gang-gang is....We have a competition here called Topsy; I am not sure if it is unique to Tasmania or also in other states. Basically, it is for beginners who have never been isn a show to get the experience. If I were to put it in a book set in tassie, I would explain it. In the same way, in Riders from Afar, the competitions are explained. It's not hard to do. In "Other Books I talk about a book called Merry Go Round in the Sea and I wondered if some judicial editing should have been used in that case. The book was pre 1960, when to our shame aborigines were still classed as Flora and Fauna and not considered people at all. That of course is a whole other issue. But you are all right; children who read are intelligent. They can tell if a book is set in the early nineteenth or late 25th century. They like to know if it is Australia, New Zealand, Canada. Wales, etc They also like the local name to be used for things.
I always thought I had an eaarly copy of Six Ponies but it doesn't include
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Post by Claire on Jan 22, 2011 12:10:48 GMT 1
Vera, I can't imagine the Silver Brumby books without all the wonderful Australian expressions and words. I didnt really know what some of them meant but they added an extra element of excitement and romance to me that was part of the magic of the books. What a horrific thought if they had changed all the references to just 'tree' and 'bird', etc! Loved all the evocative names like Paddy Rushes Bogong, even tho I had no clue what a bogong was! ;D I seem to recall some of the editions had a glossary in with explanations of some of the words, but I could be wrong as none of the copies i have at the moment have them.
Children are interested in new things, they get excited by them and it stimulates their imagination. Thats why we need to keep the integrity of books set in different cultures, countries and time periods.
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Post by garej on Jan 22, 2011 18:26:03 GMT 1
Thanks for that garej. Yes the original is certainly more lyrical and flowing than the 2nd. You can understand to some extent them changing the bit about terraced houses and tea as these are English expressions but why did they change assertation to statement??? Seems like they were 'dumbing it down' as well as Americanising it. But surely thats how kids learn when they come across words in stories they dont know they ask someone or look in a dictionary. Otherwise we'd still all be reading 'Janet and John' style books with single syllable words! You know what, it never occurred to me about it being "dumbed down". That reminds me: someone said (think it was susanb) that recent editions of some of Jean Slaughter Doty's books had been dumbed down too! That's another example of publisher interference. But yes, that is sometimes the only way to learn new words. When I was reading JPT's Showjumping Secret, I came across the term harried. I looked it up in the dictionary (yes an paper copy, not the internet) and it told me the definition.
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Post by darkhorse on Jan 22, 2011 21:43:47 GMT 1
Interesting reading. I also loathe Americanisation and dumbing down of books. Thanks for posting about the Tears for a Tall Horse book. That was the one I was thinkiing of in another discussion about Americanising books but I couldn't remember which one it was!
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Post by garej on Jan 23, 2011 13:55:20 GMT 1
Going back to books that are being updated, it reminded me of some research I did once about the PTs. In one book it says that this:-
Some of the books appear dated now, for they are full of details (sums of money, social comments, children’s slang, clothes etc.) which have changed with the times. Her own suggestion that in reprints the date that it was written should be inserted is a good one, for if a reader knows that they are reading about 1956 or 1947 they are more prepared for the period slant – indeed, it can add interest to the story.
Of course it was in the DPT entry, so that it is referring to her own books, but it could equally apply to other pony books. It would also mean that it could be less work for the publishers (especially of reprints of older books), as they only have to write an good foreword. Which is possible - GGB's forewords are good and so are Fidra's ones when written by other people than the author (or relative of). Of course, they are exceptionally long and indeed somewhat specialist - however a general publishers does not have to be long. The main thing on a general foreward is that the person behind it should know what they are talking about (and read the book most importantly - I have seen some terrible blurbs!) and should be a decent enough quality.
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Post by Claire on Jan 23, 2011 15:01:21 GMT 1
Yes, Garej that is a very good idea. They could even insert it into the story, like The Year was 1956 and so and so was..... etc. Better than chopping up half the book. Still I suppose there won't be many more reprints of the old books except for the specialist publishers like Fidra and GGB which tend to use the original text anyhow.
Interesting what you say about blurbs. Some of them don't correspond to the story inside at all and you wonder where they actually came from and who wrote them!
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Post by garej on Jan 23, 2011 15:26:06 GMT 1
Yes, Garej that is a very good idea. They could even insert it into the story, like The Year was 1956 and so and so was..... etc. Better than chopping up half the book. Still I suppose there won't be many more reprints of the old books except for the specialist publishers like Fidra and GGB which tend to use the original text anyhow. Yeah, but Catnip recently republished the Jinny books which are considered old, albeit not that long ago. I think the publishers think that modern children cant cope with different money i.e. pounds, shillings and pence. But that is a load of nonsense as the majority of 10 years old have read Harry Potter. Harry Potter deals with different money, as the wizarding world has it's own form of currency, and nobody complains about that. As long as it is explained properly (even I had to ask my mum who was around pre-decimalisation) as most 10 year olds wont have access to a mum who cant explain it all (as they were probably born after it changed). Which again, a decent foreword can explain. I have read that DPT has her own ideas about how books should be published which would ensure decent books if only the publishers would listen. For example she is strongly against "age banding" i.e. a publisher putting something like "suitable for ages 9-12" on the back of children's books.
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Post by garej on Jan 23, 2011 15:30:19 GMT 1
Interesting what you say about blurbs. Some of them don't correspond to the story inside at all and you wonder where they actually came from and who wrote them! A Pony Found (again DPT) is the worst one that I have come across, as the reason why it says that the Pony Seekers was formed is totally made up! Not only does it spoil if you havent read the first two, you do wonder what happened there. It's the same publisher for all 3, so you couldnt even blame it on another publisher!
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Post by Claire on Jan 23, 2011 15:43:36 GMT 1
An excellent point about the Harry Potter books garej.
I also disagree with age banding. Especially as I am far far over the age bands of a lot of the books I read! ;D
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Post by garej on Jan 23, 2011 15:55:27 GMT 1
I also disagree with age banding. Especially as I am far far over the age bands of a lot of the books I read! ;D I think we all are lol. I havent found a decent adult fiction book yet. Another point when it comes to children and DPT: she is also firmly against exam testing, particularly SATS of primary school children. On both those points (exam testing and age banding) I must point out she is not the only author who is against them, Phillip Pullman is against them both too. Lots of people who are somehow connected to the children's world (teachers, authors, parents, childrens book sellers) are strongly against the age banding. The only other ones we are liable to have heard of is Malcolm & Vanessa Robertson, of Fidra plus JK Rowling.
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Post by foxglove on Jan 24, 2011 10:09:27 GMT 1
That's really interesting to hear authors' views on the age banding of books. I noticed in my local library that the books are shelved in age ranges in the children's section (it also struck me how most of the books were bright paperbacks with lots of gold lettering on the spine, very different from the mainly hardbacks in the library when I was a young bookworm).
I would have thought it would be cheaper for publishers to include a small glossary of terms (I have a vague idea that one of my Silver Brumby books did) rather than comission a "translation" into another version of English.
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Post by susanb on Jan 25, 2011 0:23:16 GMT 1
It was me garaj, and the comparison sprung to mind as soon as I saw your post comparing the two editions of The Boy and the Donkey. I've not come across anything like that in an older book....I'd thought it was a modern evil. Lucikly, I haven't got any Criterion editions of British pony books...will have to scan the rest of my non-pony books to see if any "bad" editions have crept into the collection.
Claire, that was the other one I was thinking of! I remember reading it and thinking: "It's set in America. No, England. No, America........grrr......it's set in some Never-Never-Land in the middle of the d*mned Atlantic!! Gah!"
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Post by jinglerebel on Jan 25, 2011 3:06:01 GMT 1
Being Aussie, most children's books were 'foreign' and I just got used to strange terms, figured out the ones I could and ignored the rest. Having the internet back then would've helped! If I did look to see when a book was published - something I always do now- I doubt it meant much to me then. Re-reading these books now and knowing a lot were first published in the decade or so following the war explains a lot! Had I only known then that not all contemporary English children had grooms; ate elaborate teas; went about saying 'frightfully' and 'jolly good'; wore bowler hats, breeches and hacking jackets and most shockingly cleaned their tack after every ride . Growing up reading these books I found it difficult to form a picture of landscapes, trees, houses, types of furniture/clothing etc from the descriptions given, which of course would have been recognisable for local readers, and I think because of that even today I simply gloss over long descriptive passages. I prefer dialogue, character and action. We didn't really have Australian books back then and I find it funny that The Silver Brumby is often mentioned because I hated that book! Cultural cringe maybe? I was a dedicated reader prepared to put in the effort but most kids were, and I suspect are, not. I like the idea of inserting the year of the story into the text for older books, and a glossary for foreign books.
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Post by garej on Feb 12, 2011 11:00:05 GMT 1
I was wondering, does anyone have the USA edition of No Place For Ponies (it was published as The Mystery Pony) by Primrose Cumming? It was published by Criterion too, and I am wondering if Criterion decided to treat No Place For Ponies the same way as The Boy and the Donkey.
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