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Post by Claire on May 16, 2013 22:13:08 GMT 1
Thanks fizz. Sorry to hear you're not feeling too good. I know sometimes when you're ill reading about illness makes you feel like you're not the only one, other times you just don't want anything related to illness at all in your brain! I would guess its the latter in your case.
Mind you it's a very good depiction of a child's perception of a serious medical condition and the family's response to it.
Tamzin - as Fizz has kindly offered to send on the book to you, could you send your name and address to Fizz via a private message.
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Post by Claire on May 17, 2013 10:20:50 GMT 1
Do we want to make a start on discussing it now? I think a few of us have read it and the rest can join in along the way.
Apart from whether or not you liked the book here a few discussion points you might like to consider:
Do you think there should be more about the horse and less about the illness?
How well drawn are the characters?
What do you feel about the parent's attitude to Gail's illness? Is it realistic?
Would you consider it a depressing or upbeat story?
What do you feel about the dramatic ending of the book? Does it sit well with the character of the rest of the story or not?
Also don't forget to vote!
If you haven't read the book yet please DO NOT READ FURTHER IN THIS THREAD, SPOILERS BELOW! (If you still want to borrow a copy of the book please PM me)
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tamzin
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Post by tamzin on May 17, 2013 10:30:32 GMT 1
Thanks fizz. Sorry to hear you're not feeling too good. I know sometimes when you're ill reading about illness makes you feel like you're not the only one, other times you just don't want anything related to illness at all in your brain! I would guess its the latter in your case. Mind you it's a very good depiction of a child's perception of a serious medical condition and the family's response to it. Tamzin - as Fizz has kindly offered to send on the book to you, could you send your name and address to Fizz via a private message. I've sent them. Fizz -I hope the drug trial goes well and everything works out for you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2013 11:45:46 GMT 1
O.K. here goes. I didn't really enjoy this book all that much. I almost gave up on it but persevered as it's for the reading circle and Susan went to a lot of trouble to send the books for us to read. Thanks Susan Do you think there should be more about the horse and less about the illness?Yes I found the first half really depressing! I would have liked it more had the horse been included somewhere in the first few chapters. How well drawn are the characters?I did think it went from her hardly being able to do anything to suddenly she was up on the horse and galloping across the field. That didn't seem realistic to me What do you feel about the parent's attitude to Gail's illness? Is it realistic?It all got a bit heavy for me. Would you consider it a depressing or upbeat story?As said earlier I personally found it rather depressing. What do you feel about the dramatic ending of the book? Does it sit well with the character of the rest of the story or not?This is going to sound awful but I can't remember what happened at the end! I haven't got the book to check now. I gave it an average rating as it wasn't terrible, just not my cup of tea.
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Post by Claire on May 17, 2013 21:09:02 GMT 1
I'm the opposite to Rosie, I really liked this book, although with some reservations. It was very well written and to me was a fairly typical Vian Smith book which are usually quite psychologically complex and introspective.
Do you think there should be more about the horse and less about the illness?
The illness was very well depicted, especially Gail's reaction to it which was different to how an adult would react to it. Unlike other pony books which deal with polio, such as Sho Jumping Secret, it started before the illness actually struck rather than just dealing with the aftermath, which gave it more impact. I never realised polio could strike so suddenly. It was interesting to hear about the physio too. However I think for a pony book there was too much of this. It was quite a few chapters before the horse bit actually started. Perhaps the author was aiming for more of a mainstream book as there was a lot less horse stuff in it than most of his other pony books. In a way this was almost like 2 books, a hospital/illness story and a pony book.
How well drawn are the characters?
I thought the characters were excellent, very 3D. I liked Rod and Gails rather odd and slightly antagonistic friendship. I felt the author really looked into the heads of Gail and her parents and their attitude to the illness. I agree with Rosie that she seemed to recover and get on the horse a bit suddenly but I think that was a pacing fault. In the early chapters every little detail was explored where in the second part of the book there was much less emphasis given to how she coped with the ilness and more about the horse. In reality it was probably over quite a long period of time.
What do you feel about the parent's attitude to Gail's illness? Is it realistic?
I thought the parents attitudes to the illness were really well done, in particular the mother who cannot bring herself to hurt her child even tho she knows it may make her a cripple. She had a lack of courage but I think that was realistic and would be the reaction of a lot of mothers. I also found that the typical male attitude of having to 'do something' resulting in the horse was very insightful.
One of the outstanding parts for me was the mother overcoming her fear of the horse, very well done indeed and the sort of small but at the same time huge incident that can happen in real life
Would you consider it a depressing or upbeat story?
Like many of his books, not a comfort read at all, I would say it deals with stark reality rather than being depressing, certainly not upbeat in the details but the overall message and the outcome are upbeat and inspiring.
What do you feel about the dramatic ending of the book (Gail riding for help when ecsaped prisoner has her mother)? Does it sit well with the character of the rest of the story or not?
I was really disappointed with the ending and felt that this cliched melodramatic girl rides for help on horse bit did not sit well with the rest of the story which was realistic, down to earth and insightful. Funnily enough I remember earlier in the book when prisoners escaped from Dartmoor and nothing was much made of it I thought oh good they are not going to bring that old cliche into it - then it appeared at the end after all! I was wondering if other people who read it felt the same way or is it just me?! Anyway this and the lack of horsiness made me vote very good instead of excellent.
In summary, a very well written insightful book but doesnt quite pull it off as a horse story as such. Not one for those who like their pony books as comfort reading!
Also thanks again to susan for providing the book defo one of my fav Vian Smiths now.
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Post by susanb on May 18, 2013 12:46:49 GMT 1
The lack of horsiness never even occurred to me, because it isn't essentially a story about a horse, it's a story about a family. It would be as valid to say there are too many dogs in 101 Dalmations! It's the story of a girl and her family confronting serious illness. I think that here, in 2013, with polio almost eradicated in the developed world, we've lost track of just how serious the disease is, especially those who come to read of it in books like Show Jumping Secret (J Pullein-Thompson), Show Ring Rogue (Patsey Gray) or Dark Sunshine (Dorothy Lyons). Because these books start AFTER the disease has run it's course, and the children are left with limps, you'd be led to believe that's what the disease is....you get sick and then you limp. Not so much. Vian Smith's story actually takes you through Gail's illness, but there is still a lot unspoken simply because EVERYONE alive at the time the book was published KNEW what polio involved. That those who survived with just a limp were the incredibly lucky ones. Some who contracted the disease died, others were confined for the rest of their lives to an iron lung, because the paralysis affected their chest muscles. inventors.about.com/od/istartinventions/a/iron_lung.htmSo that, basically is the horror that Gail, her family, and friends are facing. I love that Smith starts the story before the illness strikes. We see that this family could really be any family....nice, middle class, with a hard working father, an at home mom and a pony mad daughter who plays with the neighborhood kids and listens to the Beatles. Once the illness strikes, the battle is fought, and won, for Gail's life. The next, often longer and harder battle, is for a return to normalcy....to the way things were BEFORE. Gail in the hospital, forced to work through the pain and learn to walk again. At home, where all of Gail's things have been burned, books, toys, the lot, and her dad spends endless hours tracking down exact replacements. Of course, when Gail returns home, she recognizes that all of her things are new copies, not her old beloved books. And her mother, so desperate to have her daughter home and under her care, soon realizes that she doesn't have what it takes to force her daughter, who so recently escaped a brush with death, to face more pain, even though it would be best for her. Then her father has an idea....one last, straw-grasping, desperate idea. Provide Gail with the one thing she's dreamed about her whole life, the one dream that remained during the long days in the hospital, the one dream that she will have to learn to walk to get to....a horse. It means spending money they don't have, taking a second night job. It means Gail's mother will be left even more on her own, her daughter's almost sole caregiver. But for them, it's worth it, just on the chance. At first, it doesn't seem to work. Gail wants to get down to her horse, but still lacks the courage to force herself through the pain. The thing that finally motivates her is the same thing driving her parents....fear for the safety of a beloved other. It's only when she thinks Sam is in danger that she acts, and she does so without even thinking about it. Then her recovery truly begins. Step by step, even if she has to slide down the last few on her behind, she works her way to Sam. Her parents have faced demons along the way too....money worries, Gail's mom, terrified of all horses, leading this big Thoroughbred out to pasture, spending so much time alone, caring for her daughter. The day finally comes for Gail's first ride, which of course, goes a bit out of control, but she makes it back. When she gets home, she sees her doctor who happens to be checking in on her: "Dr. Craig, why's he here?" But Sam gave her no time to think of it; only to feel a glow of pride because it seemed appropriate that Dr. Craig, who had pressed her to do so much, should see her doing more than he ever asked" And I think that's the point.....Gail and her family were trying to get things back to the way they were but, like the replaced books, things aren't ever going to be the same. No girl, no family, that has faced what they've faced and triumphed is ever going to be the same, they come through better, stronger, than they once were. In the end, of course, it's not just the horse she painted over and over standing tall and proud against the sky, it's Gail herself. I'll let Emily Dickenson sum it up: We never know how high we are Till we are called to rise And then, if we are true to plan Our statures touch the sky
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Post by Claire on May 18, 2013 19:47:29 GMT 1
Re. lack of horsiness, no if I'd just been reading the book as a novel I don't think I would have commented, just think its because this is a horsy reading circle and you expect a certain amount of horse content. Maybe we are being a bit picky! Mind you there are bits about horses all through the first half of the book, then mention of Topper, the fact that Dr. Craig loves horses and of course the drawings of the horses which Gail does throughout. Yes I also mentioned the fact that, unlike most pony books with a polio theme, Vian Smith takes us through the polio from its inception. I was struck by this. Like most people of my generation I have never real got how serious and widespread it was. In fact I think I only came across it by reading Show Jumping Secret. Susan have you read Stranger Than Fiction by Joyce Stranger, its a fictionalised account of the true story of Elspeth (Elfie) Bryce-Smith who contracted polio as a child but learned to walk again and ride and eventually became a jockey (altho she had to dress up as a man as women werent allowed to be jocks then!) Its a long while since I read it but I seem to remember this may have started before the onset of the disease too. Its a fascinating read.
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Post by garej on May 18, 2013 19:55:27 GMT 1
Sorry with not being able to write any feedback, I havent finished it. With everything going on at the moment I just cannot concentrate on reading. But what I read (which was approx a third of the book) I enjoyed.
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Post by Claire on May 18, 2013 19:57:50 GMT 1
Don't worry about it Garej, maybe when you are feeling a bit better you can read the rest of the book. You can keep the copy as I think we have arranged copies for everyone who wants to read it now.
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Post by rallycairn on May 19, 2013 0:28:42 GMT 1
There is also the wonderfual _I Can Jump Puddles_ by Alan Marshall, about his life in Australia post polio, including some strong horsey bits but other stuff, too, like his learning to swim, overnight trip to the bush, then later becoming an accountant, etc.
Re: _Tall and Proud_, I think you could almost think of it as three books: first, the disease; second, the coming of Sam (including the superb bit where the mother has to blanket him and turn him out, as Claire mentioned) and Gail's rather quick progression into riding; and finally, the escaped convict finale.
For me, I would NOT want any of the disease and recovery stuff cut; however, I would definitely have preferred the rest of the book to maintain that level of detail and pacing. The first part of Sam's coming seemed in keeping with the early pace of the book, but absolutely it proceeded too quickly from Gail's first rather eventful ride to full recovery. And her riding so easily and well was a bit hard to buy -- even with a bowed tendon injury and letdown from race training, I'd think an off-the-track thoroughbred would be a mighty hot mount for any girl, let alone one riding for the first time post-polio. Still, that's a minor quibble.
I did find the escaped convict finale to be a bit out of character with the rest of the book, but I didn't mind it too much. I would have liked it even more had we had a little more detail on Gail's progression from grooming Sam to first rides to comfort in the saddle, as I've said, so that we readers could enjoy her personal triumph over the disease and her bonding with Sam a lot more. Especially since I see that as the true climax or import of the book, far more than catching a crook. And if we'd gotten more detail of Gail's riding and continued bonding with Sam, then the the tension-filled finale would have been icing on the cake.
Nevertheless, the escaped convict sequence was as well written and as psychologically convincing as the rest of the book, from the thoughts of Gail's mom as this creepy evening unfolded to Rod's thoughts and actions to Gail's dad insisting on going home after meeting up with Gail and the police up the road.
I do think Rod deserved more credit, though, because after all his getting home and having his mother call the police was likely enough to have saved the day, although it probably helped the police to have Gail ride up, as well, to confirm the exact location and actions of Hennessey.
I enjoyed the book and wish I had paid better attention to the fact that the bookseller I bought my copy from had some other Vian Smith titles, including Come Down the Mountain which looks quite interesting.
Because I did find the pacing of the book a little uneven, and felt the last portions of Gail's recovery could have been detailed as well as her early symptoms and treatment, I'm going with a Very Good rating. I had rated it Good, but in writing these thoughts down I felt it had too many strengths in writing quality and overall compelling story to be rated any lower.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2013 7:02:29 GMT 1
Now others have written about the ending I can remember it. I think Rallys observations about the book being in three parts is true. The ending to me didn't sit easily with the rest of the story. I'm trying to think of something positive to say about the book. I just can't. I didn't like his writing style or his descriptions of the countryside. Sorry!
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Post by fizz on May 19, 2013 10:29:27 GMT 1
My first thoughts about the book were what audience had Smith aimed it at? It doesn't read like a children's or even a teen book, but also seems to miss being a completely adult read. I think had I read it at 12 I would have completely bypassed all the family psychology, the part that is really interesting reading as an adult.
I found the illness bit very well written & more or less convincing. The other fictional account I read about the development of polio was Nemisis by Phillip Roth that describes the development of an epidemic in America in Newark, New Jersey in the 1940s. This shows the indiscriminate nature of the virus & how quickly it took hold on it's victims. Now I think we have forgotten about it, but I am old enough to remember the panic it caused. there were children in my school with legs in irons & as happened to Gail, it could be caught even if the person was vaccinated. My mother wouldn't let me go swimming in the Summer, it spread in hot weather & was believed to be water-borne. I am not sure if that is true now, but Smith makes it water-borne in the story. I presume then that Gail is playing in the stream in warm weather.
Gail's parents are very well described & pivotal to the book's success, the Mother especially so. Her fear is shown throughout the book. She gradually begins to come to terms with this & her character develops. At the beginning, remember the Doctor on call says "Don't tell your wife". As the book develops the Mother begins to have to face up to the illness & causing her child pain. We don't hear her called Barbara until the story is fairly well established, previously she is called Mrs Fleming, I feel this is significant. She becomes Barbara when she has faced up to a huge fear & rugged the horse. The tenseness of this mirrors her daughter's struggles with her pain & mobility. The Father is more methodical & sensitive to his daughters needs, replacing all the books & finding the horse. He is a more solid element than the anxious Mother.
The character & inclusion of Sam with his injured leg is an ideal foil to Gail's injury, perhaps it is a little trite, but it works. A thoroughbred seems an odd choice for them, but I suppose convenient. I agree with the idea a seasoned racehorse by Archive, even with a tendon injury would be too much for a young girl with a weak leg. As well as for non horsey people to manage in a stable, I well remember my 13 hand pony kicking my Dad out of the stable when we first got him. However I think there is a much bigger time lapse in this book than initially noticed. I think about 18 months, maybe more, before she begins to ride & take part in the rescue. Here I do think there is less emphasis on the practicalities of the riding & the discomfort, compared to say Charles in Show Jumping Secret.
The rescue sort of fits in....when the prison is mentioned at the beginning I knew a prisoner would escape.
To me the book is about 3 rehabilitations, Sam, Gail & her Mother. Barbara travels a long way too, from being the protective shielding person at the beginning, when Topper could not be mentioned or replaced.
I enjoyed some of Smith's prose "the hospital windows receded like leaves on a stream"
Also I must comment on the sometimes hilarious, but well drawn illustrations by Don Stivers, just look at the Mother's expressions!
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Post by Claire on May 19, 2013 11:23:59 GMT 1
Fizz makes a great point about the mother developing as a character. Unlike a lot of pony books, the parents are very rounded characters and important to the story. As susan said the novel is mainly about family dynamics. This is the same in all the Vian Smith books I've read. I agree that the book seems to be aimed at an older more sophisticated readership than children (most of VS's books were adult or at least young adult) but then again it could perhaps be one of those which can be read on different levels depending on age. Has anyone actually read the book as a child? If so what did you think of it then, compared to now? Lol yes the drawings were quite melodramatic and look a bit dated now What about the cover art - did anyone else find it pretty awful? Has anyone got the first edition, I'd like to see that and what the original illustrations were like.
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Post by fizz on May 19, 2013 12:29:59 GMT 1
The cover art looked very American, the house in particular. The internal illustrations were better, it looked as though Don Stivers had tried to look like it was the Uk, the car looks a British model. I liked the immediacy of the drawings & the viewpoints. Very different to most pony book illustrations; look like lithographs. I too would be interested to see the UK versions.
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Post by susanb on May 19, 2013 15:35:28 GMT 1
The cover art is awful, isn't it? But I've got to say, it's actually the best (if you can call it that) of the three editions.....both the UK and US hardcover are terrible too! I've got them and will post pictures asap. The odd thing is that this is one of two British books that I adored as a child with awful UK and US cover art in all it's editions (the other was Beryl Netherclift's The Snowstorm, a time slip). Maybe it was the era...sigh. The book, though not popular in the UK (at least I'm assuming that, based on the rarity of the UK edition) was very popular for children in the US, and yes, I read it as a child. It turns up now and again as an "please tell me the author and title of this book I looooooved as a child" inquires...I've seen it come up several times on abebooks. It must have sold very well in fact, as it had both a hardcover and a paperback editions. I think you're right, Claire, it can be read on different levels (like Kipling's Kim), as a child I'm sure a lot of the family stuff went over my head, though even then I really appreciated that the parents were wonderful. As an adult, I agree that the escaped convict bit doesn't quite sit, though it might have been intended as a...I don't know, final test? final triumph? especially for Mrs. Fleming. For, while the sneaking out and riding to the rescue is more flashy and dramatic, it's Mrs. Fleming who is actually there, in her home, with a dangerous criminal and her daughter (she believes at first) upstairs. I can't imagine anything more awful, but she doesn't fall apart! As a child, of course, I was riding through the night with Gail on Sam, as I imagine were all the US girls who adored this book (poor Sam, quite a lot to carry on a bad leg ).
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Post by darkhorse on May 19, 2013 16:25:06 GMT 1
I'm trying not to read the comments as I am just about to start. Sorry I am behind as usual. If anyone else wants to read the book I will be happy to pass it on after I have read it, as long as you don't mind waiting!
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Post by susanb on May 19, 2013 23:26:29 GMT 1
UK hardcover US hardcover
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Post by susanb on May 19, 2013 23:27:19 GMT 1
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Post by Claire on May 20, 2013 2:29:29 GMT 1
Thanks for putting the pics up susan. Must nick 'em for the Vian Smith web page Certainly a case of a good book being let down by cover art. (altho I had a little giggle at the escaped prisoner with the arrows on his prison suit! ;D ) I've got the Martin Rides the Moor Constable edition, rather unusual style dustjackets in that series. Re. sizing pics, I use imageshack which is dead easy to re-size as you choose the size before you download so no fiddling about trying to re-size them afterwards.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2013 6:57:07 GMT 1
Now that's what made my toes curl. He said another one which I can't remember exactly how it went but it was about a stream sounding like a grumbling old man waiting for his pension or something like that ehhh? How can it sound like that! Even though it's pink, bleuuuugh, I like the hb cover
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Post by fizz on May 20, 2013 9:51:32 GMT 1
What's wrong with the original cover? I think it is a great piece of design from that era.
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Post by Claire on May 20, 2013 10:50:30 GMT 1
I liked that simile! I guess you prefer more simplistic prose Rosie - don't do a literature degree then! ;D I like the design of the pink cover but the artwork is too comic strip-like for such a serious story.
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Post by susanb on May 20, 2013 11:22:29 GMT 1
Well, looked at in that light....erm....no, I still can't love it ;D It does make it more interesting though, thinking of it as a sign o' the times....I'll appreciate it more now!
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2013 11:59:54 GMT 1
Simple, that's me ;D
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tamzin
Pony Clubber
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Post by tamzin on May 23, 2013 19:51:08 GMT 1
Whilst I was waiting for this I read Martin Rides the Moor. When it arrived I was getting towards the end of Come Down the Mountain and wanted to finish it first. I’ve started reading T&P today. Strangely enough I’ve had the 2 books for ages, but hadn’t read them and T&P was the spur for me to read them. What I’d like to say about T&P so far is that the same thing strikes me about all 3 books. Instead of the usual set up in a story for children where the parents are absent or in the background all 3 involve all the family. I found it refreshing to see events from a boy’s point of view and the Dad’s point of view. It feels obvious that VS is a father himself and understands how events which affect one family member often have an impact on other family members. What I found surprising was how much he understands the teenage girls in Come Down the Mountain. Interesting that the Dad in T&P is a journalist just as VS was. That’s all I can say so far except that I’m really enjoying it. Will say more when I finish it!
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Post by Claire on May 23, 2013 22:39:08 GMT 1
What I found surprising was how much he understands the teenage girls in Come Down the Mountain. ! Totally agree - in fact for years I thought the author was a woman, as I couldn't imagine a man writing that book!
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Post by garej on May 24, 2013 20:21:59 GMT 1
Don't worry about it Garej, maybe when you are feeling a bit better you can read the rest of the book. You can keep the copy as I think we have arranged copies for everyone who wants to read it now. Thanks for letting me know about that. I do plan to read it once I get back on track.
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Post by Claire on May 24, 2013 22:24:50 GMT 1
Yes anyone who enjoyed the book is welcome to keep their copy as I'm sure susan doesn't want them all sending back to the US and I dont know what I'd do with all 4! If you didn't enjoy it so much then you can pass it on to someone else or back to me and maybe I can sell on ebay in aid of a horse charity.
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Post by darkhorse on May 25, 2013 21:10:16 GMT 1
First of all thank you to Susan for providing the books! I don't have a huge amount to add, as I agree with a lot of what has been said already regarding the lack of horse content and the pacing. I didn't mind the riding for rescue bit although I do agree that it didn't seem to belong to the rest of the book. It was almost as if the author suddenly thought this is supposed to be a pony book so I think I'd better put in something you normally have in pony books! I liked that the adults characters were almost as important as the children. I don't know if I would have enjoyed the book as much as a child as an adult. I only started reading Vian Smith as an adult. I agree with Rosie that there was a bit too much flowery language: like her I prefer more simplistic language in my books. I voted very good.
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Post by Claire on May 26, 2013 11:40:38 GMT 1
I didn't mind the riding for rescue bit although I do agree that it didn't seem to belong to the rest of the book. It was almost as if the author suddenly thought this is supposed to be a pony book so I think I'd better put in something you normally have in pony books! Exactly darkhorse! For me the book just missed out on being outstanding. I think if it had lost the cheesy ending and used that space to develop more of the relationship between Gail and Sam and also made the ending more of a small private triumph (such as the mother's triumph in feeding and turning out horse) rather than a melodramatic one, it would have been. Also maybe if Sam had been introduced at the beginning of the book and we had seen his story parallel that of Gail's, this would have had added impact. Interesting to see such a wide range of votes on this one - if you haven't already voted and have read it can you get your vote in?
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